Bus lane fine, Denmark Hill

[rendelharris]

Cardelia, for some reason you've missed out the bit where it said that the bus lane makings at the start of the bus lane and the signage were perfectly clear? And that the vans may not have been part of the works and so are irrelevant? And I can't help but think but the fact that the signs were not obvious until "the Appellant was virtually at the crossing" isn't much of an excuse for not noticing them for an aware driver.

Look, good luck to the OP, they've got away with it. But basically, unless they say they are a stranger to the area and never knew there was a bus lane there, they knew they shouldn't have stopped there, they've argued the toss on a technicality and got away with it. So it goes. But the suggestion that it was unreasonable of Southwark to contest this is farcical.

I'd love to hear from the OP as to whether they would not have stopped there if the roadworks weren't there. It's a bus lane, it was an operative bus lane at the time, and the fact that there were some minor occlusions of signage and road markings at the time doesn't change that.

[Cardelia]

rendelharris Wrote:

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> Cardelia, for some reason you've missed out the

> bit where it said that the bus lane makings at the

> start of the bus lane and the signage were

> perfectly clear? And that the vans may not have

> been part of the works and so are irrelevant? And

> I can't help but think but the fact that the signs

> were not obvious until "the Appellant was

> virtually at the crossing" isn't much of an excuse

> for not noticing them for an aware driver.

You're right, I did miss those bits out. Probably for the same reason that your post conveniently missed out the bits of the adjudicator's report that corroborated my initial statement. Can't think why you did that...

Part of the process for making sure that signage is adequate (from a road safety point of view as well as from a legal point of view when it comes to prosecutions for contraventions) is having suitable levels of redundancy. This means multiple metal signs; painted road markings which aren't obscured, or old and worn; multiple examples of clear lettering - that sort of thing. There are multiple metal bus lane signs on Champion Park, for instance, and it may have been the case that the sign at the beginning of the bus lane was clear but other signs further on were obscured. If the OP's contravention had taken place directly after the clear and obvious sign then the appeal likely wouldn't have succeeded. But the OP's contravention took place directly after a sign which was obscured by vans. It also took place directly after a set of roadworks which partially obscured the lane markings and completely obscured the painted 'bus lane' writing. Hence there is reasonable doubt that the bus lane was in force at the point the OP stopped to pick up their passenger because so much of the normal signage was partially or completely obscured.

[MCMC]

If you're not concentrating 100% when you're driving sell your car and walk away.

Yours

A. Cyclist

[trinidad]

If someone was picking up a passenger from Denmark Hill Station, could the driver pick up there passenger safely and without breaking any traffic regulations - especially as there is a bus lane in front of the station, and another on the opposite side of the road?

[Jules-and-Boo]

so, really - the OP is saying that they didn't know it was a bus lane and if you get ticketed parking in an area that has works going on, then to challenge it as it may not have been clearly marked.

Personally, if in doubt and near roadworks, I wouldn't park/ drop off. I would have thought that was common sense.

[trinidad]

Another viewpoint on this, is the OP may of assumed the bus lane was not in operations due to the roadworks, and therefore safe to stop. Whatever your view point, the parking adjudicator as awarded in the OP favor, suggesting there must of been some form of foul play somewhere. Was it a southwark council cctv who snapped you, or a TFL one?

[Ladharrbeinn]

Hi all,

sorry, just checked back here after seeing it mentioned on the TweetsDulwich. I was the OP. So I do live in east dulwich, but I'm a cyclist and only rarely drive in London - so I haven't memorised the locations of bus lanes around the area.

I'm a careful driver, never had so much as a speeding ticket, so I was surprised when the fine landed (already at ?130 because I didn't seem to receive the first letter). I went back to have a look at the road, and saw the Bus Lane markings on the road were almost totally rubbed out by new tarmac, so I challenged the fine - i had a very vague recollection of road works, but no detailed memory, and I was surprised I would have stopped in a bus lane without knowing it. Southwark rejected, I took it on to the independent adjudicator, at which point Southwark sent me the "sweep" footage, which showed road work hoardings completely covering the bus lane, including the white line and two Bus Lane markings on the road, most of the way back to the corner where Champion Lane turns uphill, certainly all the way past the Salvation Army.

I didn't actually cross a white line, only stopped at the lights, then moved across the pedestrian crossing and left to the curb, where I stopped, and where the bus lane timing sign was obscured, both by the road workers vans and temporary lights.

Anyhow, no question the bus lane was not clearly or legally marked at that point.

BUT wider point - there was no bus, or other traffic there at the time. I stopped for a few seconds to pick up an elderly woman. A ?130 fine - again, more than two days wages for many - is disproportionate, and imho is the council farming its citizens rather than creating an incentive to good driving. A ?20 fine would do that.

[Gadge]

I think it's pathetic that you can not drop someone off at a station using a 10 second stop in a bus lane without receiving a fine. Provided you are not holding any any users of the lane I really don't see the problem. Perhaps next time the OP should stop in the middle of the road and discharge the passenger into the bus lane. The person reviewing the video should use some discretion and only fine if the offender parked in the Lane without reason.

[DulwichLondoner]

On a related topic, what I find insane is that so many bus lane signs all over London are almost hidden from view. Take this one, coming from Camberwell rd towards Denmark Hill: it is almost always hidden by buses and trees

https://goo.gl/maps/P7ATWWPsjLv

Yes, you do see there's a bus lane, but what the hours of operation are, or what vehicles are allowed, is often impossible to understand.

The total inconsistency on hours of operation and on whether motorbikes are allowed is also hard to understand; I do wonder to what extent it is intentionally designed to catch people out, or if it's some kind of pissing contest because councils hate that red routes are managed by TFL. Either way, it's actually distracting and dangerous to have so many rules in the same city - a typical example of why it's dysfunctional to have so many councils each with their own rules. Unless someone can prove that allowing a motorcycle on the bus lane opposite the Denmark Hill station is dangerous, but allowing it on red routes is safe!

[Mick Mac]

Ladharrbeinn Wrote:

Fair enough

[Sue]

DulwichLondoner: Surely the times of operation of a particular bus lane will depend on the traffic patterns during the day on that particular road/route? Which are quite likely to vary from road to road and depending on the time of day and direction of travel.

Also, during those roadworks, the congestion was an absolute nightmare and I was more than once sitting on a bus near Denmark Hill station for a very long time because of vehicles going both ways trying - and failing - to pass each other.

Gadge: You say "I think it's pathetic that you can not drop someone off at a station using a 10 second stop in a bus lane without receiving a fine."

First of all, I cannot believe you could drop someone off in ten seconds.

Secondly, bus lanes are there for a purpose, and consequently so are the fines. Once you start making exceptions to "drop someone off" you might as well not have the bus lane at all.

[Mick Mac]

Ladharrbeinn Wrote:

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> BUT wider point - there was no bus, or other

> traffic there at the time.

that's irrelevant.

I stopped for a few

> seconds to pick up an elderly woman. A ?130 fine -

> again, more than two days wages for many - is

> disproportionate, and imho is the council farming

> its citizens rather than creating an incentive to

> good driving. A ?20 fine would do that.

it sounds like you could afford the ?20 fine in which case its probably not a significant disincentive. Its a lot of money so that people take it seriously. For buses to work effectively they need to be able to progress. Its a slow enough method of transport without people parking in bus lanes.

What is a problem is that the road down the side of Denmark Hill station is now no longer available. It means there is nowhere really to drop off. The parking spaces along the road are always taken.

Will thie road be reopening?

[rendelharris]

DulwichLondoner Wrote:

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> On a related topic, what I find insane is that so

> many bus lane signs all over London are almost

> hidden from view. Take this one, coming from

> Camberwell rd towards Denmark Hill: it is almost

> always hidden by buses and trees

> https://goo.gl/maps/P7ATWWPsjLv

Well, that sign looks pretty obvious to me - furthermore if you're approaching the junction from Peckham there's a clear sign before the traffic lights warning that there's a bus lane if you turn left, and if you're approaching from Camberwell Road the sign is facing you head on. I mean, if you can't spot a bus lane that's got a big sign at its start, is clearly marked on the road and is even different colour tarmac to the main lanes, perhaps your awareness isn't suitable for driving a motor vehicle. Seriously, let's stop making excuses for doing things we know are wrong, or that we at least should know are wrong if we're concentrating.

Agree about motorcycles in bus lanes though.

[trinidad]

Sue Wrote:

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> DulwichLondoner: Surely the times of operation of

> a particular bus lane will depend on the traffic

> patterns during the day on that particular

> road/route? Which are quite likely to vary from

> road to road and depending on the time of day and

> direction of travel.

>

> Also, during those roadworks, the congestion was

> an absolute nightmare and I was more than once

> sitting on a bus near Denmark Hill station for a

> very long time because of vehicles going both ways

> trying - and failing - to pass each other.

>

> Gadge: You say "I think it's pathetic that you can

> not drop someone off at a station using a 10

> second stop in a bus lane without receiving a

> fine."

>

> First of all, I cannot believe you could drop

> someone off in ten seconds.

>

> Secondly, bus lanes are there for a purpose, and

> consequently so are the fines. Once you start

> making exceptions to "drop someone off" you might

> as well not have the bus lane at all.

So where can cars drop off and pick up passengers safely and within the driving regulations of denmark hill station?

[Sally Eva]

A car with a blue badge indicating that it is being used to transport a disabled person may park on a double yellow line for four hours. If the passenger who is being "dropped off" is not sufficiently disabled to qualify for a blue badge they may have to be dropped off further away.

[redpost]

"So where can cars drop off and pick up passengers safely and within the driving regulations of denmark hill station?"

The nearest is probably fox on the hill car park, but *shock horror* the passenger will have to use their legs and actually walk/waddle a bit.

[Sue]

redpost Wrote:

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> "So where can cars drop off and pick up passengers

> safely and within the driving regulations of

> denmark hill station?"

>

> The nearest is probably fox on the hill car park,

> but *shock horror* the passenger will have to use

> their legs and actually walk/waddle a bit.

Also when the lights are red. Done that a few times. You just have to be very quick.