Since when did getting into secondary school become an X-Factor audition?

[new mother]

I am astonished to read that any parent of an academic child would want him or her to be educated with a random distribution of children. I would want such a hypothetical child to be stretched and to be able to compete in the world he or se should end up in ie a high achieving one. I would not want such a child to think he or she was awfully clever just because he or she was top in a class of mixed ability, only to end up without the skills to compete or survive at a top university thereafter.

Am I missing something? Where is the gain to an academic child in spending time with less able contemporaries? You wouldn't do it with good runners, would you?

[east-of-the-Rye]

New Mother - as previous posters stated, secondary schools put the children in sets for Maths, English, Science, Design & Technology and (after a year or so) languages. So, if your child is academic and able, then yes, they would be in the top set and taught these subjects with pupils of similar abilities, who would at all times be under threat of the dreaded "moving down" if they don't perform. They may well have to share a class room for Art, History, Geography etc with less able pupils, until they choose their GCSE choices. Maybe that experience may teach them something else as well, who knows.

[zeban]

Of course that experience will teach them something else!

new mother I do worry that you seem to think life is one big competetion, starting from school and presumably continuing the rest of your life. Yes life is hard and competitive but you know what makes it alot easier? having the ability to get along with people of all walks of life! Having humility! Being able to work as a team with differnt people! You do realise that when you come out of school/uni you enter a world full of differnt people of different abilities and in every workplace there will generally be a mixed bunch of people and you will be expected to get along with everyone.

Personally I think emotional intelligence and common sense are very important lessons to learn, and actually just as important as academics. I've met many an 'academically able' person in my life, who went to private school, were brought up thinking that that was the be and end all etc, and yet had not an ounce of common sense or emotional intelligence. Academics may get you through school but you'll get much farther in life if you have common sense and emotional intelligence.

It's a shame new mother that you clearly don't think any of these lessons are worth learning!

[MGolden]

new mother Wrote:

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> I am astonished to read that any parent of an

> academic child would want him or her to be

> educated with a random distribution of children. I

> would want such a hypothetical child to be

> stretched and to be able to compete in the world

> he or se should end up in ie a high achieving one.

> I would not want such a child to think he or she

> was awfully clever just because he or she was top

> in a class of mixed ability, only to end up

> without the skills to compete or survive at a top

> university thereafter.

>

> Am I missing something? Where is the gain to an

> academic child in spending time with less able

> contemporaries? You wouldn't do it with good

> runners, would you?

My academic son is also a good runner and talented footballer. He goes to a mixed comprehensive school which is representative of the city we live in - his peer group is racially and socially diverse. He is in the 'top' set academically and is, as far as we can tell, being stretched academically. Like many 12yo boys he wants to be a footballer when he grows up but as a fall back has said he will go to Loughborough or Bath to study sports science. He understands that to do that he will need to be a very high achiever academically. At school he relaxes by playing in the school's very successful football team and running for a successful running club which has runners of all abilities. I don't believe a grammar school would offer him the grounded education that a state comprehensive does.

So yes, newmother I do think my son gains by spending time with children of all abilities both academically and sporting. :)

[westof]

new mother you have some quite odd ideas about how state schools operate.

At the comprehensive school I went to, which didn't have streams but did have have sets for subjects like English & Maths, most of the sixth form went on to university & a few every year made it to Oxford or Cambridge - I think they were probably being academically stretched enough.

They didn't fail once they got there either, because it was a large school and so they were able to be part of a sizable high-ability peer group - very far from being the sole top pupil in a mixed ability class.

I don't think it did them any harm to have been part of a school community (assemblies, P.E., school plays, music, debates etc) with children who were studying car maintenance & looking for apprenticeships, in fact quite the contrary it added to their experience of life.

OK - that was a comprehensive in a reasonably affluent rural market town - the kind that usually does alright anyway. The kind of school which people assured me didn't exist in inner London which was full of sink schools & terrible social problems. Hand on heart, I can say that my daughter's school & her experiences there are really not much different (certainly not in any negative way) from the school I went to, and her school certainly isn't the only one round here like that.

I think I understand where you are coming from with respect to it being good for an academic child to be educated with other academic children - it's great when you get a pool of clever children together and they can all all buzz off each other's creativity & potential. But when comprehensives are allowed to flourish, you do still actually get that because there's a big enough pool of children for that to happen.

[westof]

And strange as it may seem to you, I think the 'less academically able' of us actually added to that pool of creativity because we were in a stable, flourishing environment where we were all valued :).

[Mrs TP]

I am loving the debate my original post has started. Thanks to all for responding, great to see all the different takes on the situation. It is keeping me cheery and happy through the whole terrible secondary school hunt debacle.

I had spent all summer convincing myself I would not get freaked out by it and would smile gracefully throughout and avoiding all related playground gossip. Have failed miserably. Almost had a nervous breakdown the night after visiting our first secondary school and I listen intently in our current primary playground every morning and afternoon as to what the other parents are making of it, which ranges from some not really giving a toss and literally driving past a school and saying 'yeah looks ok' to extra tuition for for grammar / independent schools.

I naively thought we would be able, without worry, to apply for and get into a comprehensive school in Southwark / Lewisham with sound academic achievements and direction. Kingsdale takes a %age from each ability band - I think the %age relates to how many applicants in each band, so the bands with the most pupils whether upper, middle or lower are the most represented in the school. So essentially it is a lottery and they state that places are not offered in response to their scholarship programme. Charter goes on distance and it is unlikely (but not impossible) that we will get in. Prendergast and Haberdashers would be the music option as we are too far away for distance criteria. Have yet to visit a few others.

This is the first of my brood to move to secondary school and I joke to myself that by the time number 3 is going I will be so chilled I will let her fill the application form in herself ...

[BB100]

Peckhamgatecrasher Wrote:

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> Sorry to rain on your parade, but it's not that

> remarkable. My daughter sat the test at Askes and

> auditioned at Prendergast where she was accepted.

>

> She doesn't read a note of music and her audition

> piece was her own composition on an African drum

> that we borrowed.

Fabulous Peckhamgatecrasher - a lovely experience to hear for once :))(tu) I take it she didn't get into Aske's though. ;-)

Mrs TP, I was exactly like you telling myself I wouldn't fret about it but it was very difficult not to feel physically sick about the whole thing. Then when my first child actually started school it didn't turn out to be what my child expected. My child was very disappointed. After going to a lovely primary school with outstanding teachers the behaviour of the children in secondary came as a big shock to my child. So taking Grammar (which feels like taking a social experiment with my children) was not for the education or elitism but in the hope that the behaviour would be better, which I can confidently say certainly is. I just wish I had given my other children the same opportunity to not have their education disrupted by children who are not ready to learn.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

As it happens BB, she ended up at Grey Coats. Wasn't bothered about music at all. I just think she has an exceptionally good 'ear'.

[BB100]

Peckhamgatecrasher Wrote:

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> As it happens BB, she ended up at Grey Coats.

> Wasn't bothered about music at all. I just think

> she has an exceptionally good 'ear'.

The rain was refreshing though.

[Mrs TP]

Just got back from open morning at Kingsdale where the head himself likened their music scholarship application process to the X-Factor - I rest my case.

[Dorothy]

Ha ha! I thought about this thread when he said that Mrs TP (was there too) and I nearly laughed out loud.

By the way, did you hear him near as darnit saying "forget about being offered a place here unless you put us no. 1 on your list"? Of course he can't say anything as overt as that, but he made it extremely plain in a number of other ways. I cannot begin to convey my frustration with that school and its cloak and dagger admissions policy.

[Mrs TP]

Hi Dorothy

Glad you shared the moment! I also see they have withdrawn their maths scholarships until after you get in - so still not fair that they are allowed to select on music and sport but not academic ability - it is this unfairness that is bugging me.

Re the order placement I think they just get fed up that it is not always everyone's first choice and for all their flag waving they are actually offering places to those who put it 2nd, 3rd, 4th. Our friend's daughter got in there on her 4th choice two years ago.

Our primary headteacher explained the list order to us that if for example you met the criteria for and could be offered places at your 2nd, 4th and 6th choices then you would be offered a place at the highest ranking so your 2nd choice and you would never actually find out what others you could also have got into. The schools don't know your order ranking (but I understand will ask your child at any auditions / interviews) and can't say 'oh we will give our first places to those who choose us 1st'.

I see Kingsdale had over 1600 applicants last year but that is people putting it between 1-6 and not necessarily 1st.

It is a hellish process all around - go with what's right for you.

Good luck to all out there and don't forget your Kingsdale X-Factor applications have to be in by 12th October - ha ha!

[westof]

Mrs TP Wrote:

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> > Our primary headteacher explained the list order

> to us that if for example you met the criteria for

> and could be offered places at your 2nd, 4th and

> 6th choices then you would be offered a place at

> the highest ranking so your 2nd choice and you

> would never actually find out what others you

> could also have got into.

This is absolutely correct, also the schools do NOT know from your application whether you have placed them 1st or 6th when they consider the application.

> The schools don't know

> your order ranking (but I understand will ask your

> child at any auditions / interviews) and can't say

> 'oh we will give our first places to those who

> choose us 1st'.

I think they just ask this, because in the past, people have assumed that if they pass the scholarship they will automatically get an offer from Kingsdale - but in fact if they had put another school first & then been offered a place (e.g. Charter when they live on the doorstep), their Kingsdale place is automatically rejected in the first round of offers.

Although I can also see why they would want to know if people are putting them first or not, since it's in any school's interest to know if their popularity is rising or falling (it shouldn't matter but it does), so perhaps if they are asking then it proves they really don't get to find out from the application? Maybe some kind of anonymised questionnaire would be better - it would at least stop the rumours that they are asking for the wrong reasons.

You really do have to just put the choices in the order YOU want though - e.g. if Charter would be best for you, but you would settle for Kingsdale-with-a-music-scholarship, then put Charter first even if you take the aptitude test.

I do understand your frustration with the entire process - if all you want is for your child to go to a decent school locally, then having selectives in Wandsworth & Sutton is no consolation. I'd like to say you will get through it mentally unscarred, but then I remember that was the year I developed my bald patch ::o (am not a bloke btw).