St Thomas More Hall closing

[Marion OHalloran]

Hi East Dulwich forum friends,

On hearing that Thomas Moore hall was leased to the nursery, and the bar would be dismantled, I decided to email the Archbishop and appeal to save our hall. His secretary told me he was out of office but would return on 5th sept. I am still waiting for a reply, which I don't expect to get now. It is too late.

I have attented Thomas Moore for the past 30 yrs, but it did need a boost and new energy recently - not closure as a community hall and re direct as a new bussiness. The right people given the opportunity could have made a difference.

On Fr. Gerry he is happy to be rid of it and has no interest in it as a hall, and that is gospel.... no lie! It's very sad it has been running for 41 years.

[Gimme]

What are Father Gerry's motives? Perhaps God is telling him to seek rent from a commercial organisation?

[DJKillaQueen]

Who knows, but it doesn't seem to be very considerate behaviour (let alone Christian) to me. Hopefully with help from Renata and other Halls and community leaders we can get everyone moved somewhere so that as many of the activities as possible can continue, because it's not just about the activities themselves...but the long standing communities that have been built around them....and no amount of money can buy or replace those once they are broken up.

[Renata Hamvas]

No one has contacted me about the days/times activities usually were run at St Thomas More Hall, I think as well as dancing, language classes, there may have been a youth club there, on a Friday? When you contact me please let me know usual number of people attending and whether you need alarge hall, or would a small one be OK,

thanks

Renata

[edcatz]

I agree with EmilyE, the Goose Green Centre is a marvellous venue for groups. Have been there many times. It is located opposite Goose Green. Suggest you contact the Centre Manager if you are looking for a spacious modern venue.

[mikeb]

I think there is probably another side to this - what is the rent proposed to be used for? That would enable a clearer assessment of the relative merits of helping / subsidising the local groups that currently use the centre.

[silverfox]

Agreed Mikeb,

Lots of emotive talk on this subject, no actual figures as to what the hall was costing the church for the (few?) actual people who used the hall.

Question, will the East Dulwich community really be put out by the demise of this hall?

Personally I never set foot in it

[DJKillaQueen]

The hall was making a profit from it's activities and bar revenue. My colleague is someone in a position to know that.

[silverfox]

?1 can be a profit.

The nursery might generate a profit several times greater than previously and be more useful to the community.

Where are the facts rather than the hearsay?

[Chener Books]

My family was involved in the refurbishment of the premises after St Anthony's School left the building.

My memory, which may be defective, is that all negotiations were conducted with the diocese.

Can someone confirm whether it was the diocese or the parish that made this decision?

John Kennedy

[James Barber]

The community centre at Goose Green contacted the father to way any community bookings looking for a venue they would try and help. Sadly the father wasn't interested.

All very odd and strange.

[James Barber]

Father Gerry was very generous with his time this morning.

He is certain that the Thomas Moore Hall is absolutely not viable in it's present form. The hall is owned by the diocese and not the parish, so I'm sure he would only be taking the actions so far with the authority of the diocese.

During the next 3 months he plans to undertake a feasibility for the hall. He is absolutely clear that the Thomas Moore Hall is very run down.

I asked if he would welcome ideas and offers of help and he was clear that at this time he doesn't want to opern those potential flood gates or make his contact details more public.

I highlighted that local East Dulwich Councillors have helped arrange capital funding for religious centres that host community activities - from memory Christchurch bread of life ?100,0000, URC on East Dulwich Grove ?30,000, Mosque on North Cross Road ?20,0000, Christchurch ?30,0000. And that we'd like to keep the Thomas Moore Hall improve and thrive.

I've offered to show him and any of his colleagues other church halls in the Dulwich area that have nurseries during

week days and other community activities at the weekends and evenings. A great example of this is is on Half Moon Lane

- they gave me a tour recently and it was an incredibly well run ship.

He suggested the Thomas Moore Hall is run as a social club and has very few members. That maybe but it serves a useful function hosting so many other community activities.

From a planning permission perspective I'd be surprised if the site would quickly gain planning consent for other uses whether shops, offices or housing. Normally such a change of use would require several years of marketing for a new owner under it's current designation. I'm sure many could show no effort at engaging the community to make this site viable had taken place.... Unless things suddenly change.

I did counsel Father Gerry that ideally he'd share as much information publicly as possible to show why the decision to close in the current format had been taken. Fingers crossed he does this.

[Alan Medic]

It sounds like time is the only thing Father Gerry was generous with.

[bluntlaser]

Although I can't comment on St Thomas More hall - I have never been in there and am not involved with any of the groups that have used the hall over the years I can see, as others have pointed out that it is a highly emotive subject. However I did feel that I wanted to just say that although it maybe hasn't been dealt with in the best way, I don't think it is fair to cast aspersions over someone's character without knowing all the facts of the situation.

I have infact met Father Gerry a couple of times as I work for the homeless charity and day centre in Streatham that Father Gerry helped found 21 years ago and played an active part in until he was moved to St Thomas More at the beginning of this year (I started working there a few months before he was moved to East Dulwich). He truly did amazing work for the charity and in the time he was there helped many vulnerable and disadvantaged people in the South London community so casting him as some miserly character I think is unfair.

Hopefully the situation is resolved in a positive way for those of you that are upset/angered by this situation.

[tomk]

Father Gerry is a great guy. Is it possible he/the Diocese thinks the funds from this may be better spent on working amongst the poor in Southwark than on maintaining community groups (nice though that idea is)? Rather than casting aspersions on his character, why don't people just ask him after mass on Sunday? He is very approachable.

[minder]

James Barber - the first sentence of your posting at 8.58am today didn't really make sense - what were you trying to say?

By the way, I went to a social evening event at the hall a few weeks ago and was told it would be one of the last for 5 years.

Before this I'd only been to the jumble sales and my Mum to the line dancing so it seemed a shame.

[minder]

In answer to your question Silverfox, the ED community WILL be put out by the demise of this hall. Just because you've "never set foot in it" does that make a difference?

Did you ever set foot in the Dulwich Club which existed until it was closed down? This was a thriving social club for the ED community and beyond until it was closed down. It was hidden behind what is now some cul-de-sac private buildings next door to the toy shop (soup dragon)? which has the shoe recycling bag outside. Opposite the hardware store.

My family, friends and people living outside of ED all came to this hall every week and just for social occasions during the early 70's and beyond. This was up until around 10-12 years ago when it closed down.

I can still remember the shiny ballroom light hanging going round as people danced.

[Salsaboy]

My view is that the church, especially the catholics, do whatever they want, whenever they want and sod the rest of you. It's all down to money in the end.

[Fr. Gerry Mulvihill]

Closure of St Thomas More Hall

Soon after coming to St Thomas More Parish in February this year, I

asked a bookkeeper here in the parish to look over the books of St

Thomas More Club. I had been visiting advertised events at the Club

and could see that attendances were small. The review of the books

showed that the Club has been running at a loss for at least three

years. It would be irresponsible to continue operating a club

which is making a loss. What would happen to creditors if or when

a club went bust? So while there is still a small

sum in the Hall account I took the unavoidable decision to close the

Club and use remaining funds to

secure and maintain the building while considering, in conjunction with

diocesan officials, the future of St Thomas More Hall.

For many years Southwark Irish Cultural Association has managed the

cultural events and classes that have taken place at St Thomas More

Hall. I have been in touch throughout with the leadership of the

Association and they fully understand the position of the hall and are

fully supportive of the action I have had to take.

I am sorry for the inconvenience caused to user groups of the hall who

have had to find a suitable alternative space at short notice over the

summer period.

For the record, no decision has been made as to the future of the Hall

and no agreement has been entered into with anyone. It has been

suggested that a nursery would be an appropriate use which would be of

service to the local community. Are there other uses people would like

to see considered? If you would like to see a nursery there, what kind

of nursery? Do let me know. Any proposed use would need to have a

sound business case, though not necessarily for profit, and would have

to have a proper management structure representing good business

practice and local community interests. As an immediate step I plan to

have a feasibility study done by a professional such as an architect

firstly on the condition of the building but also on possible

community uses. I guess everyone would agree that the demographics of

East Dulwich have changed greatly since the St Thomas More Club was

set up forty years ago and I consider that a review of the usage of

the Hall is timely. The building is a large old Victorian school and

I suspect, may require some investment to bring it up to standard for

any new usage.

I can well understand that the closure of St Thomas More Club is a

matter of regret and sadness for those who remember it in its heyday.

But times have changed and we now have an opportunity to assess

appropriate and viable uses of the premises for the benefit of our

local community. I welcome ideas and suggestions through this forum.

Sincerely,

Father Gerry Mulvihill

[Penguin68]

It is very useful to hear from the 'horse's mouth' about this. And to see such an openness to listen. The point about demographic changes is well made - and it is good to hear that the issue is viability, not profit.

There are many more people with young families now - something which addressed their needs (in a non sectarian manner) might be appropriate.

And if a day-time user could be found to generate sufficient (or close to it) for viability, the Father might want to consider whether offering exclusive daytime use would necessarily preclude evening or night usage which was compatable with the daytime users, and which, on its own, wouldn't necessarily cost-in.

[Martine01]

I have been a user of the hall for many years, and I am very disappointed that a range of cultural activities have needed to find new homes with no consultation. The teachers running the classes should have been approached and asked if their students were prepared to pay more for the classes _ I certainly would have been sympathic to that request.

Facilities like this hall are key to keeping out communities together and the local churches have a role in this. I suggest that the feasibility study should have input from users of the hall and those of us who are active in the parish.

I agree decisions should not be based solely on profitability and must also consider benefits to local schools and cultural groups. That said I am confident Father Gerry will take our comments on board and ensure that developments on this problem are shared either in the sunday newsletter from sunday mass or elswhere.....

[Huguenot]

It's always surprising how many people want to run expensive feasability and consultation processes to try and force other people to keep paying for cheap facilities ;-)

The church isn't a tax payer funded social service. It's a private institution with spectacularly private objectives. It has every right to choose to invest its own money appropriately to meet those ends.

I'm really disappointed by the uninformed and aggresive approaches of some on this thread in acccusing the administrators of 'greed'. It's spectacularly rude, and in it's lack of knowledge it's simply abuse.

[Salsaboy]

Something that the catholic church is very good at.

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

it's simply abuse.

[DJKillaQueen]

When I joined my Tenants Association it was losing money every year, to the tune of ?4k and it was five months away from going bankrupt. One of the first things to do was to look at this, and address it. We didn't close the hall, until we could find something that made enough money. We looked at existing revenue streams and activities and pricing, corrected the balance between those activities that bring in revenue and those that are funded. We improved efficiency in overheads, cut out wastage. We did it all with sensitivity towards those that were using the hall, so making sure we kept some core groups, activities in place and then from there brought in new things, attracting new groups of the local community.

It can be done but it takes work.

FG and the diocese haven't just decided to close the hall, they've decided to remove/ sell off the bar and sell off furniture....having decided none of this will have any role in the future use of the Hall (odd thing to do if no future use has yet been determined). From what my colleague has told me (she's been involved with St Thomas's for 30 years) and from my own experience of running a community hall, I find the decision to shut everything down in the way it has been a bit odd. Empty buildings still require expenditure and as pointed out by others, if the plan is to have a nursery, that needn't necessarily interfere with evening use of the Hall.

My instincts tell me (and I will happily aknowledge I may be wrong) that there is a bit of 'something for an easy life' going on. The diocese faced with loss making, are looking for a single use profit making venture - and whilst it may not be greedy, it is lazy. Just my view though.

[Huguenot]

I don't quite understand DJKQ - did you used to run Thomas More Hall and turn it around or was it another another one?

Who bankrolled your debt of 4k a year?

I'm also confused about the phrase 'Community Hall'. This doesn't appear to be a Community Hall - it appears to belong to the Catholic Church?

Did I miss something?