Crown & Greyhound

[rendelharris]

Quit the unedifying personal feud, would you, ITATM? You made a fool of yourself before trying to start a hate thread against me before Admin deleted it, you're going the same way again.

[JoeLeg]

intexasatthe moment Wrote:

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>

> I read the OP's description of events ,the amount

> of detail and balanced tone led me to believe that

> something had s gone seriously wrong . The OP gave

> credit where it was due and referred to one of the

> managers as intervening in a helpful way and that

> a further response from the pub was awaited .

>

I hold no brief for the Greyhound - in fact I think it?s an utterly dull pub which should be replaced with something much better, which frankly wouldn?t be hard - but it?s entitled to the same defence as any other business.

They?ve been accused of something pretty heinous, and while I have great sympathy for the OP insofar as they feel aggrieved and abused, there is a basic level of understanding (or at least there should be), in that it?s not cool to go onto social media and tell your side of the story before they?ve had a chance to check things their end, *especially* when in your original post (which I read) you *admit* that a senior manager intervened, was reasonable, and vowed to investigate.

As recent events in a Philadelphia Starbucks showed, there is a time and a place for using social media to highlight blatant injustice. This was not such a time. The manager said he would find out what happened. If, after that, they are still not satisfied then of course they can escalate their complaint, and taking it public is part of that. It?s the rapid leap onto a forum without thinking first which bothers me.

> I didn't read later posts by the OP - perhaps they

> weren't balanced or calm .

Well they accused the forum of supporting racism, so no, they weren?t.

But from the description

> of what happened I can understand how he/his wife

> drew the conclusions they did .Possibly the

> conclusions were incorrect ,but we weren't in

> their shoes and I can see how deeply upset the

> OP/her husband would be .Upset enough to loose

> their cool and go on to post incautious posts .

>

> Cut them some slack .

I find it hard to, to be honest. Every day minorities around the world get treated badly because people make assumptions about them, and it?s very possible this happened here.

But many of those have incidents wouldn?t happen for if the perpetrators acknowledged their unconscious bias and stopped to listen to the other persons views. In other words, letting people explain themselves. A good example is this incident - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44068305. This crap is still happening All The Time. I don?t deny it, and it?s shameful, and something like this may well have happened at the Greyhound.

But the flip side to that is, when someone defends themselves, we have to let them try and explain too. And hitting up Twitter, Faceache, local forums and Instagram *before investigations are complete * is not helpful, especially if someone may lose their job over it. Stuff like that can help them make a case for unfair dismissal, even if they are guilty as sin.

I think this whole thing is a perfect example of why people need to be really careful with social media. It?s a double-edged sword, responsibility with it goes both ways.

[intexasatthe moment]

I agree with your points Joe .

Just feel that jellyb posted in haste while reeling from what they felt had happened . Not wise but something I understood .

[rendelharris]

intexasatthe moment Wrote:

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> "And while we're here, why do you think you're

> some sort of unofficial admin? Make your points,

> stop the self-righteous telling off of others

> please."

> hilarious comment from RH who can happily tell

> other posters what they can't say and how they're

> not allowed to stop posting on a thread .

Don't think I've ever told someone they're not allowed to stop posting. How would that work? How often would I insist that they post?

[intexasatthe moment]

Oh Rendel do stop it . I agree with a lot of your posts ,some I don't .

Are you really going to fall back on the "personal feud " winge everytime I disagree with you ?

And for the edification of other readers ( if there are any ) the "hate " thread Rendel refers to was me asking him to stop sending PM's . He had sent me a PM ,I had replied asking him not to PM me and he then promptly sent me another .

Admin quite rightly deleted the thread - it was no more than a personal interchange between posters .

[intexasatthe moment]

Jellyb says "I don't wont to continue with this thread and want

to draw a close to this matter."

Rendel says "No mate, you don't get to say that"

but accuses Alice of self righteously telling people off and acting as unoffical Admin.

[rendelharris]

To make a long-awaited return to the point, could jellybeanz tell us why they deleted the content of their OP on this thread? And why they haven't carried out their threat to tell their "3000 Twitter followers" about this alleged incident? If it's true that a local business denied service to someone because of their enthnicity that business must be called to account, apologise and detail the remedial measures they're going to put in place. If it's not true, the accusations should be withdrawn and an apology made by the accuser. An apology should be made to Admin in any case for accusing them of racism for removing the potentially actionable first post. You can't just chuck such a serious accusation out there on social media then think it disappears if you remove your text.

[rendelharris]

intexasatthe moment Wrote:

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> Jellyb says "I don't wont to continue with this

> thread and want

> to draw a close to this matter."

>

> Rendel says "No mate, you don't get to say that"

>

> but accuses Alice of self righteously telling

> people off and acting as unoffical Admin.

Drop the bone now, ITATM, there's no meat left on it.

[intexasatthe moment]

I believe the events that JellyB complained about only took place yesterday afternoon ? Could be wrong .

Guessing that it might take a little time for staff to investigate and decide on action ,if any .

I can see why it might be thought that they should go public with the outcome but it may be that they decide not to .

As for JellyB - he/she has said that they want to draw a close to this thread .I know you feel differently RH .

Who knows ,perhaps JB posted this thread in haste and has thought better of taking to Twitter . Maybe they've been in contact with Admin .

I'm not going to assume that because they don't want to continue this on line that their orginal post about the lunch time events wasn't genuine or that the C&G aren't investigating and dealing .

[rendelharris]

intexasatthe moment Wrote:

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> I'm not going to assume that because they don't

> want to continue this on line that their orginal

> post about the lunch time events wasn't genuine or

> that the C&G aren't investigating and dealing .

We shall see. If I'm wrong and the Crown and Greyhound actually did deny service to someone because of their ethnicity I will happily publicly apologise. Personally I find it extremely hard to believe and until it's demonstrated otherwise I remain of the opinion that someone at the C&G messed up on a booking and the OP's wife has rushed in hotheadedly hurling unfounded accusations of racism about. Either way, you can't just throw public accusations of racism - a hate crime, we're not just talking a bit of rudeness here but a heinous criminal offence - at a person or a business and then say "I want to draw this matter to a close" without further explanation, it's just not on.

[Robert Poste's Child]

My guess is that the OP has calmed down a bit (or Admin is keeping an eye) as the word 'racism' has also disappeared from the title of the thread.

Knowing the pub involved, I suspect RH is right that it's cock-up rather than conspiracy, but clearly there's a case for them to answer and I hope they do that quickly. To be honest I don't see why they couldn't have responded yesterday as it can't have taken long to investigate.

[intexasatthe moment]

It might take a while to investigate - I've no idea of staff involved or if they were working yesterday or had finished their shift before investigations could be made .

I can't remember the detail but the description of events included JellyB's wife catching sight of the paperwork listing bookings and seeing only a few/lots of gaps .Who knows ,perhaps the book wasn't up to date and whoever is responsible for that wasn't around ?

Would one of the C&G's first thoughts be "gosh ,better check out the EDF to see if there's a thread on this ? "

And ,if they did so ,would they necessarily decide that the best thing to do would be to post ?

[diable rouge]

J'accuse...plus ?a change :)

[Administrator]

You do not post something on the forum that accuses someone, a company, organisation etc of an illegal act. If you do the post will be removed.

As I told the original poster you deal with along the proper channels e.g. directly with the individual directly, the management, the police etc.

[alice]

The op made it clear that it was 1 person working at the C&G that was to blame not the entire organisation.

Also what?s this about a booking messed up? Booking wasn?t mentioned in op

[Robert Poste's Child]

(ETA this was in response to Admin's post) Exactly, and thank goodness for that.

ITATM, I wasn't suggesting that the pub would post here but the OP's previous posts said they'd add the manager's response when they heard from them so I assumed that hasn't happened.

I understand the pub manager is aware that it's being discussed here.

[JohnL]

Somehow this reminds me of the incident with the Marriot, Swansea and The Southampton Football Team - that rebounded on Swansea LOL.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/southampton-fans-mercilessly-troll-swansea-14635477

Mind you trip advisor and trustpilot are your friends, you will go from being ignored/patronised to being listened too very quickly if you write that 1 star trust pilot review. Similarly if you write to the CEO of the parent company your problem just goes away very quickly. Then you modify the review to "issue resolved with the help xxxx".

It's capitalism in action surely.

Edit: It's VERY important to modify the reviews you put once you're satisfied (or post on here if you complained on here) - that's the carrot

[Mick Mac]

Just thinking about the reference above where someone referred to this as an accusation of being "criminal" racism, I'm pretty sure that not right. (if it happened as the OP suggests)

According to the Citizens Advice Bureau definitions, I don't think it falls into a hate incident (a number of categories are listed) and therefore seems it wont be a racist hate crime either

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/hate-crime/racist-and-religious-hate-crime/

My reading of this is that racial discrimination itself is not necessarily a crime.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/discrimination-because-of-race-religion-or-belief/discrimination-because-of-race/

Its more likely to be a civil matter:

"The law which says you mustn?t be discriminated against is called the Equality Act 2010. If you?ve been discriminated against, and you?ve not been able to sort things out with the person or organisation who?s discriminated against you, you can make a claim in the civil courts."

Its a very important distinction. The word criminal shouldn't be used inappropriately as it is likely to escalate a matter like this.

IF this did happen I think the OP has a number of options, but its not criminal. An appropriate resolution between the parties, financial or otherwise, is as much as will happen if proven, assuming there was no hostility or threat.

[rendelharris]

Sorry, yes I think you're right. It's not a criminal offence, but it is against the law. Still a very serious accusation to throw about then just say that's the end of the matter.

[JohnL]

If a complaint was logged to the police it will be logged as a hate incident (a hate incident is not a crime - just basically when a complaint is logged)

Amber Rudd's speech at the Tory party conference was logged as a hate incident.

https://fullfact.org/crime/hate-incidents-arent-same-hate-crimes/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI8qTNtPSE2wIVqrftCh1FkQGgEAAYASAAEgIq-PD_BwE

[intexasatthe moment]

"then just say that's the end of the matter" not that that's what was said .

There's a difference between saying I don't want to continue discussing this on line and saying that's the end of the matter .

Matters are dealt with ,life continues outside social media .Particularly if you've taken to heart warnings that this is exactly the kind of dispute that should not be discussed here.

[rendelharris]

The exact words used were "I don't wont to continue with this thread and want to draw a close to this matter." Sounds like saying that's the end of the matter to me, and not just online, otherwise surely they would have said "I do not wish to discuss it further here and will be dealing with it through other channels."

[JohnL]

Anyway whenever I've complained about anything I usually get an apology from the manager I've complained to however spurious or trivial the complaint (I think it's the standard response, even before any proof is available)

In my youth I was always too scared to complain about anything and got treated like a doormat because of it.

[Mick Mac]

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If a complaint was logged to the police it will be

> logged as a hate incident (a hate incident is not

> a crime - just basically when a complaint is

> logged)

>

> Amber Rudd's speech at the Tory party conference

> was logged as a hate incident.

>

> https://fullfact.org/crime/hate-incidents-arent-sa

> me-hate-crimes/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI8qTNtPSE2wIVqrft

> Ch1FkQGgEAAYASAAEgIq-PD_BwE

I'm not a lawyer, and I have a feeling you may be :) .... But I didn't think "normal" discrimination would be a hate incident, for example unfair treatment in the workplace - I wonder if what diffentiates Amber Rudd's speech is that its a very public speech which could have the potential to incite racial hatred, and hence when someone complains about it, as a hate speech, it needs to be logged as a hate incident, which then needs to be further assessed to see if it has potential to be a hate crime.

[Louisa]

I do not wish to involve myself with this thread, but a quick search of TripAdvisor under the C&G page (check the comments under the lowest ranked title of ?terrible?), you?ll discover a very recent accusation of racism. In fact, the comment is titled that way. Whether this is linked with this incident described by the OP here, I do not know.

Louisa.