David Starkey - A profound cultural change ?

[Huguenot]

Well, I reckon we should stop selling them that line ;-)

I'm not unduly bothered by the new world order (small letters), the ruthless and the fearless still need enablers to make thngs happen. In the UK those enablers tend to be quite placid and largely socialist. Loads of passive aggression.

I don't think the social system has broken down, I think we've just got a new generation who don't have personal memories of how bad it can get if you don't look after our checks and balances.

The pampered middle classes (of which you are one) comprise around 80% of the population, so if they're collateral damage there'll be no-one left!

[LadyDeliah]

How very dare you, middle class, moi, how very, very dare you!

[Undisputedtruth]

Huguenot Wrote:

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> "Once you've heard proper St Lucian Patois then

> there is no contest."

>

> Did you really say 'My dialect is better than your

> dialect'?

What I meant was St Lucian Patois is derived from French while the so called Jamaican Patois is English based and not particularly dinstinctive to the way other West Indian speaks.

But yeah, there have always been inter Island rivalry and I would imagine the Jamaican Patois was invented to rival the St Lucian Patois.

[MissNoodlesHats]

"What teenagers learn how to do for the first time is how to shut up and do what they're told for minimal return"

How nice? How bloody outdated ? Its one foot in the grave , it really is.

I see now how Starkey can have such ridiculous views, a dash of intelligence with some masked prejudices then give em enough rope and snap they forget themselves and give it all away. Its just pompous really and rather dull.

[david_carnell]

I don't think you can "invent" language. Unless you mean Esperanto.

Otherwise, the origins of Jamaican patois are likely to have come from

"slaves from West and Central Africa who were exposed to, learned and nativized the vernacular and dialectal forms of English spoken by their masters".

Or perhaps this paper by NYU might be more illuminating:

[Ridgley]

H Wrote

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Sorry UDT, you're simply wrong - a patois is any non-stamdard language.

The etymology of the word is French

There is a Jamaican Patois

I have to say although it pains me to say this I do agree with H patois is a French word and it is spoken in some of the Caribbean islands but there is Jamaican Patwa that is distinctive to Jamaicans. My mother speaks it and so do only when I am taking the mickey out of her.

Some people are not aware but most of the Caribbean Islands have there own dialect as well as speaking French and Spanish my mother?s generation where taught to speak Spanish at school so there is some truth about Jamaica being a Spanish colony.

[Huguenot]

"Pompous and dull"

That was the abuse I knew you'd start on AFN. ;-)

[Ridgley]

UDT Wrote

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Once you've heard proper St Lucian Patois then there is no contest.

I beg to differ once you hear Jamaican, Patwa or some linguist call it Jamaican Creole is undisputed. And yes there is island rivalry at times Jamaicans tend to get a bad rap and are sometimes stereo typed too ;-)

[Huguenot]

I didn't write that Ridgley, UDT did.

[Undisputedtruth]

I came across the word patois during the early eighties and at the time I didn't know what it was. During the nineties I visited St Lucia and saw my Uncle speaking Patois and for me that language was very distinctive. I visited other countries in the Caribbean and didn't come across anything as distinctive as St Lucian Patois.

[Ridgley]

I suppose there different dialects in the Caribbean. I have heard St Lucian Patois which more of a French base to it could not understand it, also heard Grenada and Tobago which is also French based patois as well.

Jamaican Patwa is also distinctive to more English based and also German there are quite a few words that have the same meaning in German.

[MissNoodlesHats]

I don't think you can "invent" language.

Are we saying that there is a distinct difference between language and slang. I think we are but at some point is does not really make a difference, especially to those using slang to communicate.

Its just another thing that disconnects, and with attitudes like "young people should shut up, do what their told and for minimal pay" who can blame them.

"And we gotta keep a strap in da house cause we the niggas flagging black gang in da south"

[Ridgley]

Language does evolve over the centuries now from cockney to now to street. Which I must admit gives me a headache

[Undisputedtruth]

Ridgley Wrote:

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> I suppose there different dialects in the

> Caribbean. I have heard St Lucian Patois which

> more of a French base to it could not understand

> it, also heard Grenada and Tobago which is also

> French based patois as well.

>

I can easily understand the way Jamaicans speak their slangs but not when a St Lucian speaks Patois.

[Huguenot]

The point I was referring to, AFN, was that for the first time many youngsters will be dealing with adults outside the narcissism and self-indulgence of the family home.

Whereas mum and dad have a genetic imperative for much of what they do to revolve around their children, when young adults go and get a job they find for the first time they're judged on their own worth and contribution.

There is a valuable lesson in there that when you start off, you should start off by learning to shut up, and acccept the fact that you're on minimal pay because you can't contribute much.

If you want to get on, you need to learn how to do that, as your experience grows so will your value - if you don't learn that you end up as one of life's losers.

There is no benefit to confusing kids into believing that they're going to be molly-coddled and paid for by other people for the rest of their lives. That's when they go and loot shops. Just like stealing from mum's purse at home.

[MissNoodlesHats]

I agree with the gist of the point , obviously your initial delivery was crass. I think when mentoring young people that involves some responsibility beyond 'shut up and get on with it' - not sure about this family home scenario, the only person indulging in watching flesh burn at the tip of a cigarette is the individual inflicting it.

[david_carnell]

Huguenot - are you genuinely making the argument that the riots were caused by an over-inflated sense of self? Or the crushing realisation that you're worth very little?

[Ridgley]

UDT wrote

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I can easily understand the way Jamaicans speak their slangs but not when a St Lucian speaks Patois.

Really it not the same as it is spoken in Jamaica not the same as they way my mum and her generation speaks it and it not a slang. St Lucian Patois is not really well known

[Huguenot]

No D_C my point was related to LD's comment as follows:

"My daughter and her teenage friends were all very angry at having their EMA taken away and fruitless job hunting. When Connexions was closed and the youth provision slashed, they were even more angry."

The implication being that 'very angry' people have been provoked.

My point was that whilst youngsters can be overjoyed that youth provision has been made available by the taxpayer, they have no right to be 'very angry' when the taxpayer doesn't have enough money to continue the service.

They certtainly wouldn't have the right to draw connections between the withdrawal of some youth services, being 'very angry', provocation and looting.

[Undisputedtruth]

The great danger to your argument, Huguenot, is that increasng numbers of young people are turning their backs to society and creating their own parallel world, rules and economy. They are judged by their peer groups in terms of what their contributions and self-worths are.

[david_carnell]

Also, are they not angry that politicians have chosen that as a spending cut whilst retaining, ooh say, a replacement for Trident?

I mean, they won't be because the level of discussion amongst those stealing trainers over the future of an independent nuclear deterrent was, at a guess, negligible.

But you get my drift. It's about choices not absolutes. And a careers advisory service doesn't seem like a pillowy luxury to me. It would seem eminently sensible in an ultra competitive jobs market.

[Huguenot]

I don't know much about the 'increasing numbers of young people turning their back on society', the UK has always had an underclass with a penchant for rioting - casuals, skins, football hooligans, mods, rockers, 'angry young men', follow the timeline back...

Modern technology allows them better co-ordination and more publicity.

Moreover I believe this to be a cultural issue that won't be addressed by throwing money at the problem.

However, we've also seen modern tech delivering a more robust social responses, like the street sweepers of Northcote Road.

I don't think there's a quick fix, but I'd probably go look for it in creating a sense of national cohesion, identity and belief system that's more allied to the challenges of a modern era - in other words not the C of E or immigrant bashing.

As an outsider looking in (from overseas) i'ts particularly apparent that the UK has taken a massive climb down in self-belief and pride over the last decade. The conversations on here are quite miserable compared with the positivity to be found in communities that have much less material wealth or opportunity in their lifetimes than most Brits get in one day.

[Huguenot]

@D_C, I'd be very surprised if any of the rioters knew what Trident was. I'd also be shocked if many of them had spent more than cursory glance in the direction of a 'careers advisor'.

These kids all had an excellent opportunity for free education, but probably threw it away by torturing teachers.

It's a cultural issue.

Besides which, I feel a nuclear deterrent is a must-have - we can't put the genie back in the botttle.

That's the point about government, you have to make hard choices. I don't believe that cutting Trident in favour of youth clubs would have any effect at all.

Either way, no, kids don't have a right to ve 'very angry' or feel provoked if their charity isn't as flush as it used to be.

[LadyDeliah]

I agree with david. The teenagers are not politically sophisticated, but they understand that the MPs had their hands in the till, the papers acted illegally and the bankers ripped everyone off. They are not middle-class kids I'm talking about either, so there hasn't been a lot of molycodling involved either.

Most of the kids who used the Kickstart services my son and daughter used to work for, were kids who had been excluded from school and had very difficult family circumstances. Same with Connexions. My son worked with some of the most dangerous Peckham youts and did his best to stop them knifing or shooting other people's kids.

Cutting these kinds of provisions is a false economy and will only lead to more alienation as kids are forced to grow up in ever more dangerous neigbourhoods.

I was talking to my son and other family members last night about this issue and I remembered an incident when we lived on an estate in SE1. I had seen a group of about 30 kids walk past my flat with bats and and other weapons. They came into our square whilst putting their hoods up to hide their identities. I called the police immediately and explained that there was going to be immediate violence and they needed to come mob-handed. These kids had apparently arrived from Lewisham to extract money from another young person on our estate who had sold drugs and owed them a substantial amount of money. The guy who owed the money was educationally subnormal and as a result was a total arsehole as he bought into the whole gangsta lifestyle thing despite having been beaten up and stabbed a number of times previously. Unfortunately, he knew the guys were coming for him and was in hiding, so the group of guys smashed all the windows in his mother's flat and beat her around the head with an iron bar. The police took over half an hour to arrive, by which time the perps had gone. This was normal for the area we lived in.

My point is, that many of the kids in that area were too scared to talk to the police and the people who work hard trying to divert kids away from gangs, stand up for what is right and raise the kids expectations are needed if we don't want to incur massive costs by way of police, courts, prison, social workers, drug workers etc.

Work on preventing the problem getting worse is really important.

Our estate used to have running battles with the next estate, but brave youth workers started up football and other activities on both estates and ran a football compettion between the two esttates to try to create friendships. This did way more for community cohesion than anything the police could do.

I was also on the local police panel at that time and they said the same thing. They loved the work that kickstart was doing because it made their lives easier.

So Hugo, back to your point. There are many people in this life who feel they have an entitlement that maybe they don't, such as financiers, MP's and maybe the middle-class youth you mentioned earlier. I think, hoever, the kids who previously benefited from the slashed youth services expect little from life, but are angry at what they see as injustice. and I don't blame them. I am angry too. But I have an escape route and an ability to express my anger in a more contructive way.

[Jeremy]

David, I can't be the only one who thought you were talking about the other trident programme at first...