David Starkey - A profound cultural change ?

[MissNoodlesHats]

I am not sure that your monitoring of the 'airwaves' as you put it counts as any kind of serious evidence that's worth discussing. Obviously your outlook is that a bunch of delinquent people across the UK went on to smash stuff up with no purpose other than to 'get free stuff innit"

That kind of reminds me of the not the nine o'clock news sketch

'Arrested for possession of a loud shirt in a built up area after the hours of darkness' or however it went. Anyway clearly there was more to it world view or not.

[Huguenot]

I don't disagree there were many factors, but to my mind those factors revolve around the fact they they thought looting was acceptable behavior, not that they were engaged in any sort of valid political discourse.

[Undisputedtruth]

Huguenot Wrote:

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> "Both my parents are West Indians and have visited

> family in several of the Caribbean islands."

>

> So that means that you can ignore the definition

> of patois, and deny the existence of Jamaican

> Patois?

>

> I think what David was implying was that just

> because your parents did something, it doesn't

> make you an expert in it. In the case of the word

> patois you are simply wrong, which rather proves

> his point.

I'm more of an expert, as I understand the lingo, than someone who get their sources of information from wikis.

BTW, I'll be cooking West Indian Soup on Sunday, and for those who don't know any better let's say Jamaican Soup!

How to Speak Patois for Travelers

[MissNoodlesHats]

I would be intrigued to know what you consider to be a 'valid political discourse'? It's a huge question, so go slowly and think it through carefully, its not a trick question. Very interested indeed.

[Huguenot]

As usual UDT, having been found incorrect, you're trying to change the argument to one you can win. There was never a question about understanding the lingo, you simply said there was no Jamaican Patois, and you were wrong.

The 'eHow' page that you linked to to support your incorrect assertion actually has a link on the right hand side to 'How to speak Jamaican Patois'.

There's no point in continuing this conversation with you.

[Huguenot]

@AFN - There are clinical studies that demonstrate that when politically committed people discuss political issues the rational side of their thought processes shut down. In other words they cease to be able to think clearly or reasonably.

These girls are not engaging in political discourse, to them this is a day off work, fireworks and 'free alcohol' (their own words).

In their own words, it was 'Good, good fun, of course it is'

Their political insight was limited to 'It's the government's fault though, yeah, I dunno, the Conservatives, yeah whatever, who it is, I dunno'.

It simply doesn't suit you to accept this brutal truth. There are complexities - particularly why these people are so divorced from society that showing people you 'can do whatever you want' is a good idea.

This isn't power - it's showing people you can do whatever you want - anyone can do this. We don't do it because it's stupid and destructive, because it's disempowering and cripples us all.

I know from past experience that you will not accept this, because it doesn't conform with your world view. You'll deny it, you'll try and twist it, you'll try and negotiate your way out of it.

In the end you'll just start abusing people who disagree with you (I notice you've already started).

[RositaPR]

:)....

[Huguenot]

On a previous subject, AFN is making the same mistakes that many acitvists do when referring to the internet as a saviour.

Any sensible review of the net contribution of technology to social empowerment must take into account the negative effects as well as the positive ones.

Worth watching for its beauty as well as veracity.

What activists don't realise is that 15 years ago the government would have to torture vast swathes of dissenters to gain even cursory information about the set up of a subversive network.

Now they only need to look on Facebook.

[LadyDeliah]

Huguenot Wrote:

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> Possibly, or more likely you're insisting that

> these people are oppressed victims fighting for

> their rights because it suits your world outlook.

>

> You deny that they were just shopping with a

> hammer instead of a wallet despite the airwaves

> hot with kids cheering about the 'free stuf' they

> was getting innit.

>

> If you can completely ignore the evidence like

> this then it rather makes it pointless to discuss

> it.

Ok, my teenage daughter is the same demographic as those that went out rioting. She also got the same BB messages. They did say get free stuff, but they also said a lot of stuff about fuck the system and war against the police. It wasn't just about the free stuff. It was an insurrection. The fact that stuff was looted at the same time, does not take away the political content.

It may have been a very basic politiical expression, but fuck the system and war on the police, is still political expression.

[MissNoodlesHats]

I seem to have missed half this conversation somewhere? Anyway I think the writer above the above appears out of touch somewhere. I think they are confusing a political act with politics, as if only engaging in some kind of pre ordained and sanctioned party political mechanism is all that defines acting politically?

Moving past the rest of it , saviours, activists internet I have no clue where they are coming from? The internet is creating change, tick. Water is wet, tick.

Basically ladyD calls it correctly.

[MissNoodlesHats]

.

[Undisputedtruth]

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> As usual UDT, having been found incorrect, you're

> trying to change the argument to one you can win.

> There was never a question about understanding the

> lingo, you simply said there was no Jamaican

> Patois, and you were wrong.

>

> The 'eHow' page that you linked to to support your

> incorrect assertion actually has a link on the

> right hand side to 'How to speak Jamaican

> Patois'.

>

> There's no point in continuing this conversation

> with you.

I think the main problem is the lack of understanding of West Indian culture and language on your part. No website/wiki is a direct substitute for real life experience and there is a conflict on this forum between those who rely on third party information and my real life direct experiences. Once you've heard proper St Lucian Patois then there is no contest.

Unfortunately anything West Indian seems to get labelled as Jamaican and this has been going on for decades. Hence why people like yourself are totally clueless when it comes to West Indian culture and language. I suspect most people here can't tell the difference between a Jamaican accent and a non-Jamaican West Indian one.

[Undisputedtruth]

MissNoodlesHats Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I would be intrigued to know what you consider to

> be a 'valid political discourse'? It's a huge

> question, so go slowly and think it through

> carefully, its not a trick question. Very

> interested indeed.

You're right it's a huge question and have a number of thoughts. It's also very difficult to put into words as well.

One such thought is the 'us and them' talk on this forum and by the Tory party including some right wing press. They are so out of touch with young people today that it doesn't leave me with any hope that these complex issues relating to the riots can ever be resolved in future. So how can we remove the 'us and them' talk and start looking at the core issues in order to create a more cohesive society? I'm not saying everyone on this forum is against our young people as Mockney Pier, LadyDelilah, and others have demonstrated understanding of the complex issues.

Deleted 'how' in 2nd para, 2nd sentence.

[RositaPR]

LadyDaliah I think you are missing the most important point in this subject.

There are many things that has not been discover yet, perhaps for luck of communication with their parents

and you will be surprise once you know, this can be discuss later on. I think

all of us have the wrong information, and we can not predict anithyng if we don't know

the foundations of the issues arise here, and as well their future projects orgonize

by the locals and (the plans to prevent a violent disturbance of the peace in our area.)

Some kids will survive without benefits becouse they can all work and they are not expecting anything

from any source whatsoever.Some kids don't like to be discriminate and they also refuse the support from others.

We can only help them with ideas and motivation, and for parents is important to communicate to gain their trust and love.

Let's forget about materialism,language or luck of understanding;' this happen because they were angry but not because they were hungry.

I was out this morning things are looking better. Everyhting was printed, read, understood, and said. Thank

you for the information posted in this forum.It has been very useful. English is not my first language but been part

of the East Dulwich Forum has help me a lot to become a better player in my chess club.

[Undisputedtruth]

Rosita, the messages relayed by Lady Daliah was no different to what I've heard while growing up in South East London during the eighties. Those who remember the bad old days under Tories would certainly communicated this to their children. Throw in the cuts and you have a recipe for riots under a Tory government.

[LadyDeliah]

Rosita I'm not sure if I understood your point, but I think you are assuming that I didn't understand what was going on because kids don't talk to their parents.

Some kids don't talk to their parents, others do. I have a very open relationship with my own parents and my children. We discuss everything from politics to sex to music to martial arts. My daughter showed me some of the BB messages that she had received and I advised her to keep out of the way of the rioters because I didn't want her to get arrested for something she didn't do.

My daughter and her teenage friends were all very angry at having their EMA taken away and fruitless job hunting. When Connexions was closed and the youth provision slashed, they were even more angry.

I saw all of this happening and although I was shocked by the level of destruction I was not surprised by the riots. I was in Birkenhead at the time of the 80's riots and the general mood was very similar.

Like I said above, the expression of the anger by looting, does not take away from the fact that this was a political act, bourne out of anger for a system that they felt they had no place or future in.

[MissNoodlesHats]

I suspect that this is a completely foreign reality for many ,

" When Connexions was closed and the youth provision slashed, they were even more angry"

A tiny bell may just be starting to ring above the din of the cry for Waitrose. After all Connexions is a brand that they just can't quite place.

[LadyDeliah]

Connexions was a really useful service for kids in Peckham but it went a while ago. I have been informed that was under Labour, but I don't think the kids care much about which party are cutting their services to be honest and I doubt it makes a lot of difference to the cumulative anger.

[LadyDeliah]

Cutting the Summer University completely in Southwark and the summer activities this year was also a huge mistake.

[Huguenot]

"My daughter and her teenage friends were all very angry at having their EMA taken away and fruitless job hunting. When Connexions was closed and the youth provision slashed, they were even more angry."

Who gave them the idea that everyone was giving them a leg up anyway?

I had no idea what 'benefits' were open to me as a teenager, let alone being resentful if they were taken away. I knew that I'd get fed, I knew I had a bed. That was it. I knew I couldn't buy anything.

I'm sorry LD, I love you to bits, but what the hell were they doing thinking people were there to give them a comfort blanket?

Of course they experienced 'fruitless job hunting'. That's life. If they were like me they'd have taken a job winding power cables onto cassette players or putting car indicator lights into a box. I bet they bloody didn't. They probably were looking for jobs that gave them some sort of inner peace.

They take jobs in restaraunts owned by predatory older men. They don't claim benefits.

They're teenagers right? The lowest of the low. Teenagers clean toilets and wipe arses. That's what makes them adults.

Life is shit. Get over it.

[Huguenot]

Can I also add that I think you probably have a terrific relationship with your kids, and it's bloody great that you can have that kind of chat where you say 'I don't think this is a bright idea' and they listen. Big Up.

[Huguenot]

"Once you've heard proper St Lucian Patois then there is no contest."

Did you really say 'My dialect is better than your dialect'?

No Reeeeeaaaaally?

Ha ha!

Ha ha ha!

Come on UDT, bit of winky giggly there, yeah? ;-)

[LadyDeliah]

My daughter asks me if I have work, which I give her when it needs doing and I have the money. I don't give my kids anything for nothing. She cleans my house (cos I'm a slob) for ?5 per hour (don't you just love child exploitation?) and even cleans up the dog crap in the back garden for me, so I think she isn't scared of undignified jobs.

She used to have a part-time job in Burgess Park cafe while she was at college, until it got taken over by someone else and all the staff were sacked.

That was over a year ago and she's been looking for work since, with my help and enthusiasm.

As it happens, she got one interview at a pub in New Cross and was offered the job but the boss was a total letch, so she didn't take up his offer. Similar thing happened to me when I was 18 and unemployed in 80's Merseyside, but the boss in that case sexually assaulted me, so I wasn't going to push my daughter to take the New Cross job.

It's pretty heart-breaking seeing her getting more and more disillusioned, but hey, that's life, well mine in any case, not yours Hugo.

[Huguenot]

That's everybody's life LD. It was my life. I don't know why anybody should have any higher expectations.

I don't know why the government should be involved in that, I don't know why there should be payments and starter systems that nark off teenageers when they're not available.

There's too much emphasis on job satisfaction and 'career opportunities'. They're teenagers, they get exploited for cheap labour. It's a valuable lesson.

What teenagers learn how to do for the first time is how to shut up and do what they're told for minimal return.

Employers like myself are pretty peeped off right now with the generation Y bunch of applicants who are generally full of shite and won't put a proper day's work in. Other people have filled them with guff about how important they are. They're not. They're only as valuable as they make themselves. And that's by putting their time in and waiting for the opportunity.

Like everyone else.

[LadyDeliah]

Yes, but after being sold the line that you can be part of the brave new world if you follow the rules, you then find out it's a plie of crap and you aren't one of the chosen few, then you are likely to be a bit miffed.

My kids are resiliant and have a hard-nosed, pragmatic (cynical?) mother to guide them, but many dont have any guidance or have questionable guidance from ther parent/s.

What can you teach your kids about succeeding in life if you are one of life's losers? If you've never employment or are addicted to drugs/alcohol or mentally ill? Many kida grow up with parents who can't show them a way out, even if they wanted to. That's wherre youth services are important.

All this is academic any way as we are facing global economic and environmental meltdown and the winners in the new world may not be the same ones on top now. The ruthless and fearless are likely to be the winners as the social system that kept the bewildered crowd in check, breaks down. The pampered middle class may end up as collateral damage as the ruthless who inhabit the top and bottom of the social scale battle it out.

Or it all might get better, somehow!