Football Focus

[Otta]

I just don't think they really thought it through, and one day they'll realise they've damaged the very people that were on their side.

[Alan Medic]

I can't help thinking that what happened in Serbia during the week has had an influence on some players being frustrated by what isn't being done to rid football of racism. Not just here but in Europe too.

By the way many players decided not to wear the t shirts. Swansea as a team didn't and Wigan didn't either in support of the Swansea players stance.

Black players are fed up and I can't blame them. How can a body like the FA made up of white men really understand what it is they have had to put up with? Of course they go tut tut but they need to come down more heavily on players like Terry if they are to have any credibility. He gets a 4 game ban to Suarez's 8 because he abused someone less times.Once is enough. You can't measure it against anything else.

[Otta]

Agreed.

[maxxi]

red devil Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> A+ for twisted logic maxxi...

Teased not twisted - too many t-shirts and wrist bands worn without due thought.

KIO have the PFA as backers and they (PFA) have (according to black players - ask Joleon Lescott) repeatedly failed to back black players when making complaints about player-on-player racial abuse.

The original point (that Ferguson is out of line) got a little help from PFA president who (as I suggested should be the case) said he will defend Ferdinand's right to free speech whilst trying to persuade him of kio's effectiveness.

[????]

Dine these after a few beers so edit if neccessary

RD 2 correct scores 4 correct results= 10 Points (Applause)

Jah 2 correct scores 3 correct results= 9 points

Rhinestone 1 correct score 6 correct results=9 points

MickM 1 correct score 6 correct results=9 points

SCSB 1 correct score 5 correct results=8 points

Lady g 1 correct score 4 correct result=7 points

Otta 1 correct score 4 correct results=7 points

Alan M 1 correct score 3 correct results=6 points

Dave R 1 correct score 3 correct result=6 points

???? 1 correct score 3 correct result=6 points

Parkdrive 5 correct scores = 5 points

Maxxi5 correct scores= 5 points

[????]

League table so far (need at least 2 weeks forecasts)

SCSB 8

RD 7.8

Otta 7.75

Parkdrive 7.5

Mick M 7

Lady G 7

Jah 6.8

???? 6.75

Alan M 6

Maxxi 5

Disclaimers

Apologies Parkdrive you were top until this weeks results

Sunday night calculations and unchecked so pleased do some one!

Rhinestone/Dave R technically top with 9 but from only 1 set of predictions

RD started weeks before anyone else so started from 5 weeks of predictions

[Mick Mac]

Can I suggest we bring n relegation for the bottom three.

Quids, if you end up in the bottom three you can stay on as administrator.

More seriously, thanks for doing the analysis. Cheers.

[red devil]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> League table so far (need at least 2 weeks

> forecasts)

>

> SCSB 8

> RD 7.8

> Otta 7.75

> Parkdrive 7.5

> Mick M 7

> Lady G 7

> Jah 6.8

> ???? 6.75

> Alan M 6

> Maxxi 5

>

>

> Disclaimers

> Apologies Parkdrive you were top until this weeks

> results

> Sunday night calculations and unchecked so pleased

> do some one!

> Rhinestone/Dave R technically top with 9 but from

> only 1 set of predictions

> RD started weeks before anyone else so started

> from 5 weeks of predictions

Well done Quids, you beat me to it. I was going to do something on a monthly basis, starting after next weeks games.

We definitely need a rule for what can be considered, e.g minimum of 3 sets of predictions per month, and for those who do 4+ in a month, their 3 best scores are used...none of this 'technically top' nonsense ;-)

[Otta]

Yeah cheers Quids, I really wanted to see a table, but have to be honest that my lazy arse never would have done it.

Good thing for us UDT isn't here, he'd have been 100% all season.

[red devil]

maxxi Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> red devil Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > A+ for twisted logic maxxi...

>

> Teased not twisted - too many t-shirts and wrist

> bands worn without due thought.

B-

Ok, so what 'due thought'* should the players be giving on this particular issue?

*Extra marks given for not citing Madonna and her Kaballah wrist band ;-)

> KIO have the PFA as backers and they (PFA) have

> (according to black players - ask Joleon Lescott)

> repeatedly failed to back black players when

> making complaints about player-on-player racial

> abuse.

So why haven't these players taken it up with the PFA then? Are they still members and paying subs? If so, why?

Surely that would be a more legitimate way to make a point than single out KIO.

> The original point (that Ferguson is out of line)

> got a little help from PFA president who (as I

> suggested should be the case) said he will defend

> Ferdinand's right to free speech whilst trying to

> persuade him of kio's effectiveness.

No one has or is denying Rio his right to free speech, instead the problem is that it appears he didn't say anything.

In response to Friday's press conference questions about Jason Roberts saying he wouldn't wear the KIO t-shirt, Fergie said ''all the players are wearing it''.

Judging by Fergie's surprise and anger at Saturday's post-match interview, it does suggest that Rio didn't go and speak to Fergie after the press conference, and say he wouldn't be wearing the t-shirt. This is why Fergie was peed off, Rio's action undermined what he said on Friday. Rio wasn't disobeying an order, because an order was never given, merely an expectation...

[Mick Mac]

Rio crosses Fergie. We all know what happens when you cross Fergie. Scrapheap awaits.

[red devil]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Good thing for us UDT isn't here, he'd have been

> 100% all season.

After the Italy forecast debacle, UDT* went on record as saying he never actually gave predictions, merely tactical analysis, so I would have banned him on a technicality...

*Let's show UDT the Red Card T-Shirts available from all leading department stores

[maxxi]

red devil Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> Ok, so what 'due thought'* should the players be

> giving on this particular issue?

Maybe just enough to see the Elephant with its trunk up its own anus?

Come on, there are those who will join campaigns without 'due thought' and who will wear a t-shirt or a wrist-band which they think stands for 'something' out of a desire to be seen to be involved in that particular campaign/issue etc. but without finding out whether or not the organisation they are promoting does what it says on the tin.

> So why haven't these players taken it up with the

> PFA then? Are they still members and paying subs?

> If so, why?

Because disagreeing with a stance taken by their association is no reason for any player to leave - rather they should stay and make their feelings know (which they have).

Far from it being pointless and not 'legitimate' there is discussion as to how the FA could and should be doing more and that maybe there had crept in a feeling of complacency in the UK that racism was only a problem abroad now. The question being asked is "Why would Ferdinand and the others do this?" and that is a question that can only help improve things.

> No one has or is denying Rio his right to free

> speech, instead the problem is that it appears he

> didn't say anything.

> In response to Friday's press conference questions

> about Jason Roberts saying he wouldn't wear the

> KIO t-shirt, Fergie said ''all the players are

> wearing it''.

> Judging by Fergie's surprise and anger at

> Saturday's post-match interview, it does suggest

> that Rio didn't go and speak to Fergie after the

> press conference, and say he wouldn't be wearing

> the t-shirt. This is why Fergie was peed off,

> Rio's action undermined what he said on Friday.

> Rio wasn't disobeying an order, because an order

> was never given, merely an expectation...

So freedom of speech only with permission?

No. The surprise and anger was at not being obeyed without question. SAF doesn't get it. If he wanted to be sure and gave a toss about the issue he should have spoken to Ferdinand before making any such public claim.

We are never going to agree RD but the Terry decision was, imo, a 'game changer' - one of those 'Do as we say not as we do' moments that means everything that went before (including kio campaigns and ribbons and banners etc) was seen (exposed?) as nothing but window dressing.

The FA have lied about it too (the CPS said they never pressurised the FA to hold off on dealing with Terry). It speaks of a mealy-mouthed and hypocritical approach to racism that will come down hard on foreigners like Suarez but will tread softly around England icons.

ETA: Just reread and realised i didn't answer your Q re 'what' due thought players should etc, etc, - I just talked about due thought in principle. In this case I would say that players might ask whether the kio charity - backed and funded by the FA - can continue to enjoy their support in light of the FA's recent actions. The twisted logic being that an organisation against racism that is backed by an association that has shown itself to be soft on dealing with racists is, well, possibly only there to make the association look good.

[Otta]

Former QPR and West Ham striker

Leroy Rosenior, who is part of the

Show Racism The Red Card group,

has been speaking to 5 live about the

row over players not wearing "Kick

It Out" t-shirts.

"We need the players to do more," he

says. "To be unified and work with

organisations. Saying 'Kick it Out'

should do more, they can't, they

haven't got the authority the

manpower or the funds. If players

want things to change they're the

drivers. We should put behind us

what happened this weekend and

start working together."

Well said.

[StraferJack]

I agree with a united front being better, but given how united people have been re KIO up until recently, has unity been enough?

Why can?t a united front be behind the players if they are saying - ?not knocking you good people at KIO but we suspect you are being used as a sop, and we the players, who are told to be ?drivers?, are now saying more needs to be done by your funding bodies and beyond. When THAT happens, you good people at KIO will have more support and we can wear the tshirts knowing it?s more than a meaningless slogan again?

Unite behind THAT and we should see faster, better changes.

I'm really not sure what Rosenior is suggesting players do beyond "wear the tshirts and don't rock the boat" - and how does that progress anything?

[StraferJack]

I think the actions of the refuseniks at the weekend could prove positive ? it has kept the whole idea of how authorties (be they overarching bodies or individual teams) deal with incidents

Most people bemoan the sorry fines/suspensions handed out to offenders (anyone want to bet on the severity of Serbia?s punishment for example) but a major factor in that is the turnover of news ? ?that fine is outrageously low! How can they ju? oooh look, Rooney has had another transplant?

Will all of this see much change? I think it?s a step in the right direction. What I think will happen is that enough people will tell the likes of ferdinand et al to stop it and get behind the ststus quo for them to relent, and then we will be back where we were

As for ferdinand in particular and his crossing of Ferguson ? the writing has been on the wall for Rio for a little while now (at the highest level anyway) so I wouldn?t be surprised to see him go within the year but I think that was already happening anyway, simply for genuine ?footballing reasons?

[red devil]

maxxi Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

You're right maxxi, we're not going to agree with the KIO protest, and we're in danger of going around in circles, but at least we are on the same side of the fence.

KIO is not soley against racism, it's also against discrimination in it's many forms, e.g. race, religion/culture, sexuality, disability. Some of us actually do read the tin ;-)

The Fergie/Rio issue is a separate matter which I will comment on further...

> So freedom of speech only with permission?

I never said that. Rio has all the free speech he needs, ever heard of Twitter?

IMO Rio lost the moral high ground once he re-Tweeted the Ashley Cole 'choc ice' 'joke'...casual racism at it's worst. He should've worn the t-shirt, as it's obvious he do with some education on the subject himself.

> No. The surprise and anger was at not being obeyed

> without question. SAF doesn't get it. If he wanted

> to be sure and gave a toss about the issue he

> should have spoken to Ferdinand before making any

> such public claim.

Fergie went into his Friday press conference as per normal to discuss Saturday's match with Stoke. This takes place after the final training session before a match. The players by then are probably already back home at their Playstations, and Fergie won't see them until the following day. The press raised the issue with the t-shirts, and IMO Fergie gave his honest opinion that he expected everyone would wear the t-shirt, as he had been given no reason to think diferently.

After what Fergie said, the ball was firmly in Rio's court to say something. The Indy is reporting today that Rio didn't make up his mind about not wearing the t-shirt until late on Friday.

Re. SJ's comment:

Rio's contract is up at the end of the season. Because of his age he will only be offered a 1 year contract. I think if Fergie feels he can do without Rio he will let him go for footballing reasons, nothing to do with t-shirtgate...

[Parkdrive]

Well at least Rio, Lescott and Roberts not wearing the shirt has got us (not just the EDF I hasten to add) talking about it, which has to be a good thing, don't you think?

[red devil]

Moving on, the important issue of the day is...was Collocini's performance yesterday just like watching Bobby Moore?

Apart from both having dodgy perms, I can't see it myself...

[Jah Lush]

No me neither.

[red devil]

Everybody relax, Fergie and Rio have kissed and made up...

[maxxi]

RD we are on the same side of the fence but we won't go round in circles - we are not England... and i still disagree with/reject everything you've said (but as you're a ManU fan I understand your pov) except the final comment;

You're right, Ferguson has never needed an excuse to get rid of payers, if anything the Jaap Stam thing has probably made him count to ten and reassess things before getting rid of anyone for other than football reasons. I do think Rio is on the way out though and the sooner the better as far as I'm concerned... there's a place waiting for him in E13. :)

[maxxi]

red devil Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Moving on, the important issue of the day is...was

> Collocini's performance yesterday just like

> watching Bobby Moore?

> Apart from both having dodgy perms, I can't see it

> myself...

Odder was the start to that comment-

"I come from a famous football club, West Ham, and that was like watching Bobby Moore."

Well, you were there for a bit Al, mate, but 'come from'?

Collocini's a good enough defender but, imo, doesn't have the anticipation or distribution skills of BM.

[Mick Mac]

Barcelona face Celtic on Tuesday night and Lionel Messi and co are just 13/10 to be the highest Champions League scorers on the night.

Manchester United can be backed at 11/8 to be the top scoring British team over both nights of midweek action.

Champions League specials:

Highest-scoring Champions League team (Oct 23 only):

Barcelona: 13/10; Man Utd: 5/1; Juventus: 13/2; Bayern Munich: 8/1; Galatasaray: 11/1; Valencia: 16/1; Benfica: 20/1; Shakhtar Donetsk: 22/1; Spartak Moscow: 25/1; Chelsea: 25/1; BATE Borisov: 33/1; CFR Cluj: 66/1; Lille: 80/1; Braga: 80/1; FC Nordsjaelland:150/1; Celtic: 200/1.

[red devil]

This is a good balanced article written by Martin Samuel, IMO a consistently good journalist...don't let the fact that he is a West Ham fan put you off ;-)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2221051/Rio-Ferdinand-Sir-Alex-Ferguson-anti-racism-t-shirt-row--Martin-Samuel.html

maxxi Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> RD we are on the same side of the fence but we

> won't go round in circles - we are not England...

> and i still disagree with/reject everything you've

> said (but as you're a ManU fan I understand your

> pov) except the final comment;

>

> You're right, Ferguson has never needed an excuse

> to get rid of payers, if anything the Jaap Stam

> thing has probably made him count to ten and

> reassess things before getting rid of anyone for

> other than football reasons. I do think Rio is on

> the way out though and the sooner the better as

> far as I'm concerned... there's a place waiting

> for him in E13. :)