Football Focus

[Huguenot]

I don't think the issue is closure, empathy or support. The victims and their immediate relatives deserve and receive their dues.

An entire community of 1.5 million people beating their chests for over 20 years on the grounds that they knew someone who knew someone before they were born? I struggle to see the proportionality.

The Hillsborough disaster was of its era, the mistakes were inevitable given the history of football violence, the cover up was hardly the first and won't be the last in the history of public service.

Liverpool supporters 'smeared'? Possibly - more likely existing popular memes were amplified. Liverpool fans certainly weren't all angels, as with every other team. It wasn't the first time they'd been involved in tragic crowd disturbances that they blamed on others. It's not surprising they were accused of crying wolf.

Liverpool a victim of dishonesty and lies from The Sun? Join the other millions who suffer at their hands. It's nothing special.

The wisest thing given the history and circumstances would be an exercise in truth and reconciliation. Somehow I can't see many Liverpudlians being satisfied with that.

[Annasfield]

Well I am glad that Liverpool had those kids that "weren't even born" on their side rather than someone like you.

Liverpool fans beat up brave cops

Liverpool fans urinated on the dead

Liverpool fans stole from the dead

None of that was true. If you don't class that as a smear, then I'd like to know which planet you are living on

The only reason that this has finally come out is because the people of Liverpool wouldn't let it just be swept away.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTxe906J8L6tbJD8qZ81ocTBvQx4pZaaup1wCDd7NgTSiQ_kYj0ig

[Huguenot]

Football fans regularly fought with police officers, people on the terraces regularly urinated either where they stood or into other people's pockets for a laugh, and thieves were rife. I doubt that Liverpool supporters were any different, nor would they have been angels during the run up to that match.

We all saw on television during last year's riots sveral grown men ransack the property of a 20 year old Malaysian student who had a broken jaw and was heavily bleeding. People don't suddenly change their nature when they see an opportunity to exploit a weakness - what chances there was even one guy in the crowd who took a similar approach?

Yes The Sun tried to sell newspapers and fabricated or heavily embellished the tales of witnesses. Liverpool fans weren't the only ones to suffer this treatment. Don't buy the Sun? What about the Mail or the Mirror? Cut from the same cloth.

The heavily polarised approach of Liverpool supporters provides their own tightly edited, rose-tinted and implausible version of events that appears nearly as distanced from the truth as that of the Sun.

[Parkdrive]

Annasfield Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Well I am glad that Liverpool had those kids that

> "weren't even born" on their side rather than

> someone like you.

>

> Liverpool fans beat up brave cops

> Liverpool fans urinated on the dead

> Liverpool fans stole from the dead

>

> None of that was true. If you don't class that as

> a smear, then I'd like to know which planet you

> are living on

>

> The only reason that this has finally come out is

> because the people of Liverpool wouldn't let it

> just be swept away.

>

> http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTxe906J8L

> 6tbJD8qZ81ocTBvQx4pZaaup1wCDd7NgTSiQ_kYj0ig

I agree with you Anna, and as a football fan and a human being, I'm appalled at the scale of the lies, deceit and cover up that has come to light and how far up the laddder it goes.

One of the Arsenal blog sites, REDactionAFC, has received hundreds of tweets suggesting fans sing YNWA on matchday this Saturday. I would be pleased to support that suggestion. Furthermore, I hope those responsible for this tragedy and the cover are brought before the courts. Many fans across the UK are thinking "there but for the grace of god" regarding that day, so this is no JUST a Liverpool issue.

[red devil]

Despite the known culture of police corruption in the 80's, I for one was still shocked at the extent of this cover-up, this was collusion on a massive scale. Well done to the familes and support groups for showing such perseverence and dignity.

As for the average fan, I'm afraid not much will change within the tribal culture that goes with being a football fan.

Next weekend Liverpool play Man Utd.

A monority of Utd fans will chant about Hillsborough, a minority of 'pool fans will chant about Munich.

A majority of Utd fans will boo Suarez, a majority of 'pool fans will boo Evra.

Business as usual...

[Parkdrive]

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Football fans regularly fought with police

> officers, people on the terraces regularly

> urinated either where they stood or into other

> people's pockets for a laugh, and thieves were

> rife. I doubt that Liverpool supporters were any

> different, nor would they have been angels during

> the run up to that match.

>

> We all saw on television during last year's riots

> sveral grown men ransack the property of a 20 year

> old Malaysian student who had a broken jaw and was

> heavily bleeding. People don't suddenly change

> their nature when they see an opportunity to

> exploit a weakness - what chances there was even

> one guy in the crowd who took a similar approach?

>

> Yes The Sun tried to sell newspapers and

> fabricated or heavily embellished the tales of

> witnesses. Liverpool fans weren't the only ones to

> suffer this treatment. Don't buy the Sun? What

> about the Mail or the Mirror? Cut from the same

> cloth.

>

> The heavily polarised approach of Liverpool

> supporters provides their own tightly edited,

> rose-tinted and implausible version of events that

> appears nearly as distanced from the truth as that

> of the Sun.

Jesus what planet do you live on?

[Huguenot]

The real one?

This was a very real tragedy for the family and immediate relatives of the deceased. I feel desperately sad for them.

The rest of the episode is an mythological construct that feeds off itself.

[Parkdrive]

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The real one?

>

> This was a very real tragedy for the family and

> immediate relatives of the deceased. I feel

> desperately sad for them.

>

> The rest of the episode is an mythological

> construct that feeds off itself.

Is this meant to be ironic? So the cover up, the lies from the authorities and the media is a "mythological construct"? You don't live on planet Earth, more like cloud cuckoo land.

[Annasfield]

What an incredibly strange and insensitive thing to say. I don't really know why I expected anything different though

[Huguenot]

I think you've misunderstood Parkdrive. I have no doubts about the culpability of the authorities.

I'm simply pointing out that a flipside to this tragic narrative has been created in some communities, where Liverpool angels were deliberately murdered by callous psychopaths of the establishment. It is as implausible as the original insistence that the Liverpool fans murdered each other for economic benefit and defecated on the corpses.

At a distance of over 20 years we really should be able to point this out without the irrationally simplistic approach of us vs. them.

Tragedies like these are many years in the making, and are full of untold complexity and human frailty.

As many have pointed out, if there was criminal behaviour the perpetrators should be brought to book.

[Otta]

I think what Huguenot is saying is that because of the headline and story in The Sun, Liverpool fans were quite understandably very defensive, as anyone would be over allegations like robbing the dead.

Yesterday we saw absolute proof that there were errors and fault with police, with press reports and everything else. As a result, Liverpool fans can say they behaved impeccably on the day, and there was absolutely no fault on their part, and anyone who suggests otherwise will be subject to the wrath of a society.

As Quids has very honestly said, it took these horrific disasters to wake a lot of people up to their behaviour.

Anyone who thinks there were no Liverpool fans pushing and shoving and causing that crowd surge is living in a dream land.

They couldn't have known what would happen, and of course the whole thing SHOULD have been avoided, or at least dealt with a lot better once it had started. But bad behaviour was at every football stadium in those days, there is no point suggesting otherwise.

[Mick Mac]

The event itself, could possibly have been created by honest mistakes, not thought through, which ended in disaster. It will live with the people of Liverpool forever.

But the cover up is a real crime and people should and will be held responsible.

We need to be able to trust our security forces and our Government, this type of thing makes you wonder if we even know the half of it.

[Otta]

Cross post, I should know that Huguenot doesn't need me to explain his points.

[Otta]

Agree Mick, but to be fair, I don't think you can really compare the police force of today with that of the 80s, especially in that part of the country.

[maxxi]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Agree Mick, but to be fair, I don't think you can

> really compare the police force of today with that

> of the 80s, especially in that part of the

> country.

This is a big part of the problem. The fact it took over two decades for the whole truth to come out is disgraceful and I can't help but think that if the victims had been another group other than football fans then it may have come out much more readily.

It's a fact that it is easier for police and local leaders and even the government to apologise when all those concerned have moved on or died and it is why those who organised and facilitated the cover up together with those who prevented a faster response from the emergency services need to be identified and, wherever possible, prosecuted.

[Otta]

Anyway, on another subject, I saw this comment on a BBC page about Michael Owen's move to Stoke, and it made me laugh

"Good on Owen. Doing what is best for him and his career just like everyone else in this forum. Obviously the thicko brigade will say "yeh but he ain't loyal to us fans.". Well get a life and stop putting so much personal emotion and self esteem in the performance of a random, ever changing cluster of people who temporarily play for a business partially adorning the name of a town that may be near you."

[red devil]

Excellent, you should've kept that up your sleeve and used it on here ;-)

[Chippy Minton]

For those who value objectivity and context with regard to Hillsborough - http://www.hfdinfo.com

#JFT96

[malumbu]

1980s, government hated football, and maybe half of society did similar. It was at a low point.

Rubbish stadiums, with rubbish stewarding (and in this case the police)

Terracing is great, but put barriers in the front, back and side (fences and exits that don't open), and with overcrowding.....

Malumbu went to a similar situation at SOTV Park once (Aston) in 1979. The police/stewards opened the gates and moved us to the less crowded corner terracing. Result was no crush, and a 0-0 draw.

Pleased that the truth is out. Sad that we lost terracing (but not the rubbish stadiums). Funny thing is Anfield is worse as an all seater than it was before the terracing went - and I have stood on the Kop.

[Atticus]

Huguenot and Otta.

Yes, there are saints and sinners throughout this.

What I'm most surprised by is your predisposition on making this an issue about the reaction of the wider Livepool public. So what, if people are kicking off if they didn't personally have any link to those killed. That should not be the prime focus for debate here. You both seem to be obsessed with this issue, yes, it's a talking point but not THE point.

You both reference how gutted you feel for the families etc but it comes across as a side issue. The issue is, that 41 lives could have been saved. I repeat, there are saints and sinners on both sides here but what has has been REVEALED over the last 48 hours is a massive cover up which anyone who you knew anyone who was there, knew.

Huguenot, before you dice and slice my post up here with pittiful semantics. Pls consider the real issue at hand.

[Otta]

Fair enough, my bad. Was just getting in to thinking about it all, perhaps not the time.

[????]

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Football fans regularly fought with police

> officers, people on the terraces regularly

> urinated either where they stood or into other

> people's pockets for a laugh, and thieves were

> rife. I doubt that Liverpool supporters were any

> different, nor would they have been angels during

> the run up to that match.

>

> We all saw on television during last year's riots

> sveral grown men ransack the property of a 20 year

> old Malaysian student who had a broken jaw and was

> heavily bleeding. People don't suddenly change

> their nature when they see an opportunity to

> exploit a weakness - what chances there was even

> one guy in the crowd who took a similar approach?

>

> Yes The Sun tried to sell newspapers and

> fabricated or heavily embellished the tales of

> witnesses. Liverpool fans weren't the only ones to

> suffer this treatment. Don't buy the Sun? What

> about the Mail or the Mirror? Cut from the same

> cloth.

>

> The heavily polarised approach of Liverpool

> supporters provides their own tightly edited,

> rose-tinted and implausible version of events that

> appears nearly as distanced from the truth as that

> of the Sun.

Fooking hell huge , where do you start with your utter rubbish. I think what the findings quite clearly suggest that what you label as 'rose tinted implausible versions of events, have been shown to have been, er, the truth. The heavily polarised approach of Liverpool supporters has meant that the truth has come out as everyone (apart from you) has now agreed - thank god they did go on and on and on asking for the truth and now, hopefully some justice. some newspapers did report 'police claims that fans had rioted, stolen from the dead and urinated etc, THe Sun reported these as Facts under a heading The Truth...miles different. Sheesh you are either ignorant of any of the facts about this as now disclosed or being unpleasantly contrary about it. Either way don't make you look good.

[Huguenot]

I'm sorry Quids, I just don't buy into the fans were angels narrative any more than I buy into the fans were devils narrative.

The truth is much messier.

Re. Atticus statement and relevant to yours, I recognise the mistakes and the cover up and have done for years. There is no revelation here as I didn't buy into the original Sun version of events, and frankly the original inquest blamed mismanagement as well. I feel no need to dwell on this as it's a given.

That a cover up amongst the police took place is no revelation either. This was of its era, it wasn't the first and it won't be the last. Those who are criminally liable should be prosecuted.

My point is this:

This issue will not and cannot be reconciled until both sides realise that this tragedy was a long time coming and it was based in the human condition, the history of conflict between football fans and the police and society at large, the the football industry abdicating responsibility for it's fans in a climate of fear.

The fans themselves, through incidents like Heysel, share the blame for this scenario, and they share the blame for the tragedy.

Like truth and reconciliation in South Africa, people will only be able to move on when they recognise that the polarised simplistic story which has been created and is currently being peddled by the footballing tribe is neither accurate nor useful.

[Parkdrive]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Anyway, on another subject, I saw this comment on

> a BBC page about Michael Owen's move to Stoke, and

> it made me laugh

>

> "Good on Owen. Doing what is best for him and his

> career just like everyone else in this forum.

> Obviously the thicko brigade will say "yeh but he

> ain't loyal to us fans.". Well get a life and stop

> putting so much personal emotion and self esteem

> in the performance of a random, ever changing

> cluster of people who temporarily play for a

> business partially adorning the name of a town

> that may be near you."

Owens not done bad considering he's earned tens of thousands of pounds for sitting down for quite a few years. Englands answer to Winston Bogarde formerly of CSKA Fulham.

[Otta]

He hasn't done bad, but I do still have some pity for him, I believe that given the choice of sitting on the bench, or the injury table and being paid a load of money, or being fit and playing for that money, he'd wish he could be fit and playing.

A career that promised much more than it ended up giving.