Football Focus

[Emerson Crane]

Sandperson Wrote:

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> Three points in the bag and there was no chance

> Spurs were going to win anyway. :))

Might have got a draw though had Clattenburg had his wits about him, and that would have been yet another lead United let slip.

[SCSB79]

Mick Mac Wrote:

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> SCSB79 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> >

> The way it's been explained as the

> > ref/lino/SFA have now said, is where the

> problem

> > lies.

>

> It was a referee and linesman agreeing to lie to a

> Manager about their decision. That is what it was.

>

>

MM - you said "No we know the truth on this one and its just

> another cover up of an incorrect decision against

> Celtic "

You are wrong. The decision was correct, it was not a penalty... can you accept that yet??

Re Broadfoot - you are only picking up on media outlets that agree it's not a penalty. Others have said it was soft, but still a foul.

p.s Did you see Stokes pathetic dive on Saturday? That was a joke... at least there was a wee bit of contact with Kirk!!

It's funny how Celtic fans don't moan when it goes in their favour.. do you remember Nakamura against St Mirren 2 or 3 seasons ago? Dives to win a last minute free kick and got up to score the winner. The Aberdeen goal chalked off for "handball" at Parkhead that meant you won, when it should have been a draw, essentially handing you the title... the ref even said afterward he just thought the player handled it and that he didn't see actually see a handball.

How about when McDonald was fouled outside of the box against Rangers and was incorrectly awarded a penalty...

We didn't see you lot greeting and running to the SFA about refs then???

oh, and with all this talk of diving/penalties etc and Lemon writing to the SFA... I'll dig out the video of HIM diving to gain a penalty for Celtic later on!!!!

[Mick Mac]

I think you are missing the point.

The point is not whether it was a correct decision - its that the Referee and Linesman agreed to lie to the referee supervisor and the Celtic manager after the match and have been reprimanded.

Not good for referees.

  Quote

Referee Dougie McDonald insists he will not quit despite being warned by the Scottish Football Association over his inaccurate report of Celtic's rescinded penalty at Tannadice.

McDonald claims he only lied to referees supervisor Jim McBurnie and Celtic manager Neil Lennon to protect assistant Steven Craven. Craven soon resigned amid the furore over McDonald's decision to order a drop ball soon after pointing to the spot when Dundee United goalkeeper Dusan Pernis challenged Gary Hooper.

On the Broadfoot dive - Again you are missing the point - the point here is you have a former top referee saying you should blame the player and not the referee for the penalty deision if the player dives - The point is where do the referees take responsibility for their decisions.

[Keef]

Players dive these days, it's a shame, but they do. As a result, refs are going to be fooled at times, and I'd agree that in these circumstances, the blame should lie with the cheating scum who has taken a dive. Liverpool players dive sometimes, and I bloody hate it, and it makles me lose respect for them, however good they may be.

I doubt there is a person on here who could claim that their team has no players who basically cheat at times.

[Emerson Crane]

Keef Wrote:

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> Players dive these days, it's a shame, but they

> do. As a result, refs are going to be fooled at

> times, and I'd agree that in these circumstances,

> the blame should lie with the cheating scum who

> has taken a dive. Liverpool players dive

> sometimes, and I bloody hate it, and it makles me

> lose respect for them, however good they may be.

>

> I doubt there is a person on here who could claim

> that their team has no players who basically cheat

> at times.

I think you're right, all teams have been guilty of it so nobody can claim the moral high ground on this one.

[Mick Mac]

Keef Wrote:

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>

> I doubt there is a person on here who could claim

> that their team has no players who basically cheat

> at times.

All teams cheat.

But its rather inappropriate for other referees to suggest that we should blame players and not referees for incorrect penalty decisions.

That seems defeatist to me - referees should seek to improve their performance and their profession generally, not seek, as a unit, to absolve themselves from blame.

When you add to that Referees and assistants being charged with and admitting to having been dishonest is their after match reports it is a bad week for the refereeing profession.

Hope that point is clear now. Or do I have to state it again.

[SCSB79]

Mick Mac Wrote:

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> I think you are missing the point.

>

> The point is not whether it was a correct decision

> - its that the Referee and Linesman agreed to lie

> to the referee supervisor and the Celtic manager

> after the match and have been reprimanded.

>

I got that point MM - that's not what I am referring to. You said, and I'll quote again:

"No we know the truth on this one and its just another cover up of an incorrect decision against Celtic"

It wasn't an incorrect decision.... but like your green and white pals up north, you'll try to keep bleating on as if it was an incorrect decision until history is re-written and it doesn't get questioned anymore.

With regards to diving... I agree, it is poor and players should be fined/banned on evidence that shows they did dive. A helluva lot of players from all teams would be hit hard. But for this, the rules have to change. At the moment diving carries a yellow card punishment if seen, but can get a two-match ban if not seen and reviewed by video evidence (in Scotland anyway - is it the same in England?). I think diving needs to have a more severe punishment if spotted by the ref in a game.

[Keef]

I too got your point Mick, I just disagree with it.

Until they start using TV replays, refs will get things wrong. Sometimes you can blame them, when they have a good view, and miss something blatant. Sometimes however, they get fooled by cheats, and I think that ex ref was spot on. Everybody goes on about the ref, but nobody is asking difficult questions of the cheat on the pitch.

The game is so big these days, it is unfair to expect the ref and his linesmen to see everything, especially given the pace at which the game is played. How good do you think TV analysis would be if they only had the game from one camera angle, at real-time? It would be shite.

If Hanson & Co can have the replays for MOTD, why can't the ref on the pitch, where it actually matters?

[Mick Mac]

You will never get anywhere with bans for diving Keef - as was proved with the Arsenal overturning the Eduardo position, it is so difficult to prove. UEFA had an opportunity there to help the game but the big clubs and their lawyers are too strong.

My view is that referees go to their whistle too easily and this offers players an opportunity to try their luck.

The best referees for me are the ones who generally give fewer penalties. If a player goes down easily or there is any doubt, don't give them a goal as a reward.

[Keef]

I never suggested bans for diving, I suggested TV replays so that refs could see if a player was brought down or dived, and react accordingly.

[Mick Mac]

Keef - "Until they start using TV replays, refs will get things wrong."

FIFA seem dead against it during games but I thought the Eduardo investigation was a missed opportunity. I just can't see it happening real time.

[SCSB79]

Dundee deducted 25 points.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/d/dundee/9146206.stm

Seems a bit steep? Why 25?

[Emerson Crane]

Jack Wilshere signs new deal with the Arsenal, very pleased with that.

[Jah Lush]

I bet you are. He's an excellent young player and can only get better.

[petemosby]

That's what I like about Arsenal. They have a lot of young players. Not like the Grandpa club - AC Milan hahaha

[petemosby]

Champions league games time. Enjoy!!! Glory Glory Man United

[SCSB79]

Back to earth with a bump in the CL. Mata and Joaquin tore us a new one.

Could have been a different story if the two Naismith efforts that rattled the post had been a couple of inches the other way.

Oh well, back to the bread and butter of the SPL with our paper thin squad. Onto St Mirren at the weekend.

[murphy]

Had fun watching the Spurs and United games at the same time, the Spurs game won hands down and Bale was unbelievable. Solid performance from United and Bebe scored, maybe he's worth a few quid after all.

[Sandperson]

That third Spurs goal was sublime.

[Jah Lush]

Just got back from White Hart Lane. What a night. We were fantastic. Great atmosphere in the ground. The crowd really got behind the team and Gareth Bale was absolutely magnificent. He tore Maicon apart. He's got to be the best left-sided player in Europe at the moment. He's absolutely flying. Every player worked their socks off and we played some great football.

Van Der Vaart; until he came off at half-time was excellent again, Modric superb and the two at the back Gallas and Kaboul put in their best performances in a Spurs shirt. We've just outplayed and out passed the European champions. I'm a very happy Spurs fan tonight.

[titch juicy]

some broadsheet quotes from this morning

"...when Bale plays like he did last night there is not a full-back in the world who can live with this 21-year-old phenomenon...."

"..It was, quite simply, the most exhilarating performance from a young player in recent memory, even by the standards of his hat-trick at San Siro two weeks ago..."

"...Such was the 21 year-olds excellence that such experienced internationals as Maicon, Walter Samuel and Lucio conducted a brief second-half inquest full of hand-waving and hand-wringing into how to halt the Welshman."

"..Redknapp was dignity personified when asked whether ''big clubs might now come in for Bale. Spurs are going places under Redknapp and Bale would be unwise to leave the party early."

"...The runaway train of Bale's talent is being hailed all over Europe, with Internazionale's Luis Figo, no fool along the flanks, telling Redknapp as the two left the field together: "He's just amazing, amazing. He killed us twice."

"..To call this a performance worthy of Roberto Carlos in his prime would not be hyperbolic."

"In one of the most mesmerising displays of the modern era - comparable perhaps to George Best's destruction of Benfica that resulted in the legend of El Beatle - Bale rendered Maicon ordinary, vulnerable, almost fragile."

[Emerson Crane]

I had a distinct feeling of de ja vu reading Sneijders remarks about how superior Serie A is to the Prem and how the Italians are far more technically gifted than the players in the Prem. He should have remembered the ill advised comments made by Materazzi before Inter played Arsenal a few years back, when he said Arsenal weren't up to the rigours of the Champs leage, this was immediately before we dismantled them at their place 5-1. Silly boy. They are not same side the Mourhino managed and it shows. Well done to spurs, hard cheese Rangers but they were outclassed/played. But it seems Walter Smiths ambition in Europe is extremely limited.

[Mick Mac]

  Quote

Celtic chief executive Peter Lawwell will today meet with his counterpart at the SFA, Stewart Regan, as the Parkhead club continue their campaign for clarification on controversial decisions made in games against Dundee United and Rangers.

The high-powered pair come together against a backdrop of assistant referee Steven Craven having already resigned following the Tannadice overturned-penalty affair, and a growing belief that the postion of the ref on the day, Dougie McDonald, is becoming more and more untenable.

McDonald has admitted he and Craven concocted a lie about the decision to overturn the penalty award which they told to the referee supervisor and then to Celtic boss Neil Lennon.

I'm not sure he will resign or whether I want him to, but referees have to above dishonesty and there will be a question mark over whether he is trusted in the future. You can't construct a lie and put it in your referees report and expect not to be questioned.

Maybe a suspension would be best.

[Keef]

Maybe Celtic should just get over it, and start playing better, so they don't have to rely on refs decisions.

*runs away sniggering*

[Mick Mac]

So Keef, do you believe there should be no action against a referee who admits to lying in his match report?

On the wider refereeing issue, most people will see this as Celtic creating a storm in a tea cup. Or whinging about referees being biased against them. Which Celtic fans have been complaining about for decades.

I'm not sure what Celtic's agenda is here - I'm not sure I agree with the approach either. It prompts people to think its some sort of sour grapes.

I don't know if at a high level in the club they believe there is some underlying unfairness and they are using these two incidents, the McDonald one in particular to highlight a wider belief.

But its a big step for the top man at a club to meet with the SFA over this type of issue.