Football Focus

[DJKillaQueen]

I think whatever the outcome of this, Liverppol will be in serious trouble.

[Emerson Crane]

Man U next?

[DJKillaQueen]

Well the Glazer brothers have been siphoning the profits off there as well. How does one of the most sucessful most profitable clubs in the world go to being a loss making club? These guys are charlatans, no interest in football, just creaming off the profits.

[ratty]

Annasfield Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm not sure Ratty, but I agree it stinks! The

> only thing I can see swaying it is that Liverpool

> have someone who will pay off the debt - therefore

> no administration, whereas Pompey didn't.

But that was not the point. The point was about getting into debt to buy football success, which is why people wanted us banned from Europe this season (which happened), and some extremists in the media want us to hand b ack our cup win in 2008. Many wanted us banned from the final last year too. Their point was that we were living on debt to buy success. My point is, what's the difference?

Hope it works out for LFC, because the alternative is horrible.

[Annasfield]

Sorry, I misunderstood you.

Just to add that I was not one of those people and I hated seeing what Pompey have been through. The only people that are impacted by this are the fans. It meant that we didn't get in to the Europa spots this season, but I did actually want you to have that opportunity again.

I'm not justifying the treatment of Pompey at all, but when Gillett and Hicks bought Liverpool, the debt stood at about ?60m. 3 years later is was ?276m. That wasn't from trying to buy success, just the simple fact that G&H had no money to buy the club so they took out a loan in their own names. That debt was then transferred to LFC. It's still not right the way Pompey were treated by our disgusting tabloid press, but they're both very different scenarios.

[DJKillaQueen]

the debt stood at about ?60m. 3 years later is was ?276m

That kind of thing just has to stop. Most business performing like that would go to the wall.

[Annasfield]

The business was not performing like that. These two twats places their debt on the club. The intrest on the loans was/is ?700k a week!!!! The club's revenue could service that, but couldn't invest in the team at the same time hence falling behind on the pitch.

[matthew123]

In simple terms Liverpool were in debt to such an extent because they had been bought with borrowed money that could not be repaid by the owners rather than that money being used for the purposes of success on the field, that is the big difference shall we say to Leeds United.

Thankfully Liverpool had a strong enough resistence at board level to withstand the Yankee onslaught - and take us to the brink of new, and I hope honest, ownership.

['bout now]

"The club's revenue could service that, but couldn't invest in the team at the same time hence falling behind on the pitch."

Aquilani, Johnson = the entire West Ham first team.

[Annasfield]

Roma owed us for Riise and Pompey owed us for Crouch. I don't know how many times we need to go over this - I can even post the net spend figures again if you like? But I wouldn't want the facts to get in the way of the myths that surround the signings of Rafa Benitez.

[Jah Lush]

Torres and Reina apart I still think Benitez wasted a lot of money on crap players. You've only got to look at your squad to see that.

[????]

*opens door, walks in.....reverse tiptoes away*

[Jah Lush]

Bloody hell! Not you as well.

[????]

;-)

['bout now]

I don't know where you get the idea that owed money = free money.You sold players to Roma and Portsmouth, they don't pay up in the required time, the terms are elongated-whatever. It does not mean that the balancing of the books between two clubs devalues the face value of a purchase. Johnson and Aquilani cost ?38 million.

Or maybe they didn't because you are Liverpool and you're different.

FWIW I have a huge soft spot for Liverpool but I'm increasingly irritated by my Scouse friends and their endless financial blusterings that mean you live by different rules.

[Annasfield]

And I'm infuriated by people, Liverpool supporters or not, who hounded out our last manager because of the press bleatings about how much they reckon he spent.

Benitez' net spend in his time at Liverpool was ?80m. In that net spend he bought players like Torres, Mascherano, Reina, Agger, Xabi Alonso. As is stated in the quote below, Torres alone would probably cover the majority of the remaining ?80m.

Yes he bought some flops (who doesn't?), it's when you've not got a pot to piss in, those flops seem to be a lot worse than what they actually are. Nothing is different because it's Liverpool, but the people who are telling you about what Liverpool have spent, probably know a bit more about it than you do, as it's their team and they bother to find out more, rather than just reading papers and watching the news.

Below are some "facts", if you can be arsed to read it!

and FYI - Aquilani has only cost us ?5m to date.

[quote name=2004/05

?2m - Josemi: peanuts and was moved on in a swap for Kromkamp 18 months later

?1.5m - Antonio Nunez: part of the Michael Owen deal and filled a gap for a while. Peanuts.

?10.7m - Xabi Alonso: Massive success and sold for ?30m+ in the summer when he wanted to leave

?6m - Luis Garcia: Massive success and sold to Athletico Madrid for ?4m

Free - Pelligrino: Stop gap that allowed us to rest Sami for league games' date=' benefitting us massively in Istanbul. Now on the coaching staff.

?6.3m - Fernando Morientes: Pretty much everyone made up when we signed him, top class, but never settled. Sold for ?3m to Valencia.

?1m - Scott Carson: One the most highly rated young keepers around. Lost out through injury and signing of Reina when Dudek left the club. Sold for ?3.25m.

Total bought: ?27.5m

Free - Marcus Babbel: Released to Stuttgart at the end of his career.

?2.5m - Danny Murphy: Xabi Alonso signed to fill the role Murphy had in the side

?8.5m - Michael Owen: Wouldn't sign a new contract and sold before he left on a free. He's done nothing since that is a masterstroke with hindsight.

Free - Stephane Henchoz: Released to Celtic at the end of his career

Total sold: ?11m

A total of ?16.5m net spend in his first year at the club, with the vast majority of that being spent on Xabi Alonso.

2004/05 net spend: ?16.5m

2005/06

?240,000 - Antonio Barragan: Kid for the future. Sold for ?675,000 to Deportivo a year later.

Free - Boudewijn Zenden: Signed for nothing and released for nothing. Did a job for us.

?6m - Pepe Reina: In the top 3 or 4 keepers in the world now and still young. One of Rafa's best signings.

?5.6m - Momo Sissoko: Brilliant for a few years, had that eye injury and sold to Juventus when his form dipped for ?8.2m. Replaced by Mascherano.

?7m - Peter Crouch: One signing I did question but proved to be a great bit of business. Turned him from a laughing stock into an international. Sold for ?11m.

Unkown - Miki Roque: Kid bought for peanuts. Sold again for an unknown amount.

?150,000 - Jack Hobbs: Highly rated 16yr old signed from Lincoln. Didn't progress as hoped and sold to Leicester for a reported ?1.5m, although figure not confirmed.

?190,000 Besian Idrizaj: No idea who he is

?1.5m - Mark Gonzales: Cheap player to provide back up for the left wing. Sold for ?3.5m to Real Betis.

Exchange - Paul Anderson: Swapped for John Welsh. Sold for ?250,000.

Exchange - Jan Kromkamp: Swapped for Josemi. Later sold for ?1.75m

?5.8m - Daniel Agger: Blighted by injuries but potentially top class and great signing for the money.

?250,000 - David Martin: Young reserve keeper

Free - Robbie Fowler: Pay as you play deal and no risk involved. Scored a few goals. Released in the summer.

Total bought: ?26.73

Free - Vladimir Smicer: Out of contract and released. Played a small part in Istanbul.

?3.5m - El Hadji Diouf: The best ?3.5m Rafa has ever recieved.

Free - Pellegrino: Filled the gap in the last 5 months of the previous season, not good enough and released.

?2m - Alou Diarra: Sold for ?2m. One of Houllier's buys.

?2m - Antonio Nunez: Bought for ?1.5m and now sold for ?2m when didn't work out.

?6.5m - Milan Baros: A Houllier signing sold at a profit. He's done nothing since.

Exchange - John Welsh: Swapped for Paul Anderson

Exchange - Josemi: Swapped for Kronkamp.

Total sold: ?14m

2005/06 net spend: ?12.73m

2006/07

?6m - Craig Bellamy: Good signing and later sold for ?7.5m to fund Torres deal.

?2m - Gabriel Palletta: Played a few league cup games, not good enough and sold for ?1.2m

Free - Fabio Aurelio: Very injury prone but a good player when fit. Great signing for nothing.

?6.7m - Jermaine Pennant: Second choice after missing out on Alves. Ran his contract down and released. Attitude stank.

?9m - Dirk Kuyt: Has his critics, but has been brilliant for the money. 15 goals last season from wide and vital to the way we play. Ultimate pro. Great signing.

?200,000 - Nabil El Zhar: Few cameos last season and improving. Injured now. Promising still. Peanuts.

?750,000 - Astrit Ajdarevic: No idea who he is, and released on a free to Leicester.

Loan - Daniele Padelli: Reserve keeper, made one appearance and never seen again.

Undisclosed - Jordy Brouwer: Young reserve.

?2.5m - Alvaro Arbeloa: Bargain signing, great service for a few years and sold for ?3.5m when running his contract down.

Loan - Javier Mascherano: Rescued from West Ham, now one of the best defensive midfielders in the world and will probably be sold to Barca this summer for a massive profit. Paid ?18.6m for him a year later at end of loan deal.

Total bought: ?27.15m

?200,000 - Zak Whitbread: Youngster

Undisclosed - Bruno Cheyrou: Houllier flopped, sold for a reported ?1.5m.

?3m - Fernando Morientes: Didn't work out. Cut his losses.

Free - Didi Hamann: Great servant, released at the end of his career

?675,000 - Antonio Barragan: Paid ?240,000 for him.

?2m - Djimi Traore: Houllier signing and daylight robbery getting ?2m for him

?500,000 - Neil Mellor: Signed as a kid and did a job for a while. Not good enough and released.

?1.75m - Jan Kromkamp: Nunez bought for ?2m, swapped for him, who then sold for ?1.75m. Stop gaps at minimal expense.

?525,000 - Darren Potter: Acadamy lad, not good enough and robbery getting that much for him.

?1.5m - Steven Warnock: Probably sold to cheap and looks a mistake with hindsight. Good squad player.

Free - Salif Diao: The clearout of Houllier's flops continues.

Total sold: ?10.15m

2006/07 net spend: ?17m

2007/08

?5m - Lucas Leiva: Brazilian player of the year when signed. Could still go either way but a lot to prove.

Undisclosed - Krisztian Nemeth: Promising youngster currently out on loan in Athens.

?270,000 - Mikel San Jose Dominguez: Youngester plays in the reserves.

?1.8m - Sebastian Leto: Left winger signing but refused a work permit. Sold for ?3m.

?20.2m - Fernando Torres: Bargain of the century

Free - Andriy Voronin: Free transfer to strengthen the squad. Plays well in Germany, garbage over here.

?5m - Yossi Benayoun: Took a while to settle but now a key player. Superb signing and an absolute bargain.

?11.5m - Ryan Babel: Highly rated dutch international. Absolute waste of space. Bad signing on reflection, but nobody knew how he'd turn out. Still got potential but he can't be arsed.

Undisclosed - Charles Itandje: Back up keeper signed for peanuts. Now released.

?1.3m - Emiliano Insua: Youngster who is now a full Argentinian international and massive potential. Bargain.

?6.5m - Martin Skrtel: Been off form this season so far, but brilliant last year and a good signing for the money.

?18.6m - Javier Mascherano: Completion of loan deal

Total bought: ?70.7m

?2.7m ? Florent Simana-Pongolle: Houllier youngster sold wanting first team football.

?100,000 ? Daniel O?Donnell: Kid sold

Free ? Jerzy Dudek: Released at end of contract

Free - Zenden: Released at end of contract

Free ? Robbie Fowler: Released at end of contract

?4m ? Luis Garcia: Wanted to return to Spain. Great service.

?6m ? Djibril Cisse: Houllier signing sold to part fund Torres deal.

?7.5m ? Craig Bellamy: Sold at profit to part fund Torres deal

?3.5m ? Mark Gonzales: Signed for ?1.5m and sold when didn?t work out.

?1.2m ? Gabriel Palletta: Bought for ?2m but never worked out. Young defender.

?3.5m ? Chris Kirkland: Houllier signing. Injury prone and wanted first team football.

?8.2m ? Momo Sissoko: Great signing, good service, sold when lost his form at a profit.

Total sold: ?36.7m

2007/08 net spend: ?34m

2008/09

Free ? Philip Degen: Garbage, but free.

?7m - Andrea Dossena: Italian international left back. Hasn?t settled. Bad signing.

?3.5m ? Diego Cavalieri: Reserve keeper. Only played league cup games so far.

?1.5m ? David N?gog: Young French striker. Promising.

?19m ? Robbie Keane: Everyone made up when we signed him. Didn?t work out and sold back to Spurs for ?16m.

?8m - Albert Riera: Spanish international. Started well but jury still out.

Total bought: ?39m

?4m ? John Arne Riise: Good servant but form tailed off. Snapped their hands off at ?4m.

Free ? Harry Kewell: Harry who?

Undisclosed ? Anthony Le Tallec: Houllier youngster finally released. Fee not known.

?11m ? Peter Crouch: Laughing stock bought for ?7m. Great signing. Wanted first team football.

?2.25m ? Danny Guthrie: Youngster from Acadamy thought not good enough.

?3.25m ? Scott Carson: Injury prone and Reina now first choice. Sold at profit.

Undisclosed ? Steve Finnan: Sold for a fee believed to be ?1m

?16m ? Robbie Keane: Didn?t work out.

Undisclosed ? Jack Hobbs: Young defender that didn?t progress. Sold for believed to ?1.5m.

Total sold: ?36.5m

2008/09 net spend: ?2.5m

2009/10

?17.5m ? Glen Johnson: Big fee, but has been brilliant so far.

?17.1m - Alberto Aquilani: Injured so far but meant to be a class act. Highly rated in Italy.

?2m ? Sotirios Kyrgiakos: Last minute signing to fill Hyypia?s shoes. Only money we had to spend.

?160,000 ? Daniel Ayala: Young defender, played a few times this season and looked promising.

Total bought: ?36.76m

?250,000 ? Paul Anderson: Youngster that didn?t progess.

Free ? Jermaine Pennant: Out of contract. Poor signing.

Free ? Miki Roque: No idea who he is. Bought for peanuts.

?3m ? Sebastian Leto: Signed for ?1.8m but didn?t get a work permit. Had to sell.

?3.5m ? Alvaro Arbeloa: Wanted to leave and out of contract in the summer.

?30m ? Xabi Alonso: Wanted to leave. Bought for ?10.7m. Great signing.

Total sold: ?36.75m

2009/10 net spend: ?10,000

Total Players Bought: ?228,976,000

Total Players Sold: ?145,100,000

Total Net Spend: ?83,876,000

So, that?s a total spend of just over ?83m in 5 years at the club. An average of ?16.6m a year.

The vast majority of his signings have been sold at profit, or if still at the club, are worth a lot more than we paid for them. Exceptions being Babel and Dossena, but we?ll still get decent fees for them when sold as they?re full internationals.

A lot of the signings above have been stepping stones in rebuilding the squad, gradually improving it by replacing players with better ones. Our league positions over the past 5 years and the improvement in our league positions and points totals show the progression.

2004/05: Finished 5th ? 58 pts

2005/06: Finished 3rd ? 82 pts

2006/07: Finished 3rd ? 68 pts

2007/08: Finished 4th ? 76 pts

2008/09: Finished 2nd ? 86 pts

Is it any coincidence that the progression seems to have stopped this summer? Look at the transfer activity above for this year and it might explain why.

Look at our net spend over the past 2 years!

We have a wage bill that is the 5th highest in the league. We can?t afford to pay players ?70,000 to be sat on the bench like United and Chelsea can.

Rafa Benitez? record with signings at the top end of the market is nothing short of brilliant. Robbie Keane being the only flop, but he was sold 6 months later and only a small financial hit taken on that mistake. Rick Parry agreed the fee for buying him in the first place, and common knowledge Rafa wasn?t happy with it; feeling it was far too high.

Where has this myth come from that he?s wasted money on shite players? Have a look through the lists above and try to point them out. There isn?t many.

The ones that haven?t worked out he?s moved on, and not very often has he made a financial loss on them.

The squad is now worth a hell of a lot more than the one he inherited, and that ?83m net spend over 5 years is easily offset by the increased value of the squad. He?d recoup nearly all of that through the sale of Torres alone!

He?s worked absolute wonders with the money he?s had to spend. Then take into account the massive amounts of money he?s self generated by reaching the latter stages of the CL every season. Two final appearances, one win. That ?83m he?s spent he?s earned the right to spend.

And when comparing it to what United have spent in the same period is flawed, as they already had a title winning squad and all the foundations in place. They weren?t rebuilding from scratch like we were. It also doesn?t take into account their massive wage bill.

When comparing to Chelsea, they spent all their money before Rafa came to the club and just topping up an already established squad.

Man City have spent more than double in the past 12 months than Rafa Benitez has in his 5 year reign.

Do some people still want to get rid of him? If so, you?ve been listening to Andy Gray and Richard Keys for too much and unable to look at the facts yourself to form an opinion.

Every manager makes tactical mistakes. Every manager makes mistakes in the transfer market. Despite what the press seem to think; Rafael Benitez appears to make less mistakes than most.

We?re expected to win the league and European Cup on a budget and wage bill that is entitled to finish 4th or 5th in the league. We?ve been overachieving under Rafael Benitez, not underachieving.

I?m not even going to mention the environment he?s working in under them two clowns.

You?ll only miss him when he?s gone?.]

[Keef]

Personally I didn't have a problem with Rafa for his signings, I just started to find the football dull. Anyway, another day, another court...

[matthew123]

In terms of Big Sales & Purchases under control of each modern Liverpool Manager: -

ManagerWorst BuyWorst SaleBest Buy

DalglishJimmy CarterJohn AldridgeJohn Barnes

SounessPaul StewartPeter BeardsleyRob Jones

EvansBrad Friedel?Patrik Berger

HoullierSalif DiaoAnelka*Dietmar Hamman

BenitezAndrea DossenaRobbie KeaneTorres

HodgsonChristain PaulsonAquilaniJoe Cole

* Not taking up option to buy after loan

[Emerson Crane]

Brad Friedel worst buy???? Only one of the prems best ever.

[????]

RIP Malcolm Allison....a true graduate of the Academy

[Annasfield]

SOLD! Thank fuck for that!!! Let's hope these lot aren't like G&H

[matthew123]

Well happy with that!

As for Friedel, he was a rotten buy for Liverpool.. he simply could not handle the pressure at Liverpool, and was a bigger calamity than the keeper we'd all hoped he'd replace David James. Having said that he recovered at lesser outfits and is quite rightly now classed as one of the better goalies in PL.

[Jah Lush]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> RIP Malcolm Allison....a true graduate of the

> Academy.

Indeed. A great and very innovative coach whose playing career was cut short too early by injury. R.I.P Malcolm.

[????]

..and that Fedora, a character too

[Narnia]

On the Robbie Keane question, why was he sold so quickly by Liverpool? As an Ireland fan I don't rate him too highly as he seems to always miss a lot of goals he should score. Mind you he is the best Ireland has but that's not saying a lot.