Youth offenders unit moving to east dulwich rd

[solutions]

Civil servant - thanks for the explanation and link re SNT.

[karter]

BrandNewGuy Wrote:

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> richardbach Please could I suggest you write your

> stuff into a word processing program, spellcheck

> it, and then copy and paste it here. I can't be

> the only person who finds it almost impossible to

> read your posts...

LOL.

Anyway, there's nothing anyone can do to stop this. Fostering unit moved out on Thursday, the place needs a refurb then the new youth offending teams moves in. I am not against this even though our house was burgled by 3 black youths a few weeks ago (our neighbour saw them). They need rehabilitating.

[Senor Chevalier]

OK - Nobody has a crystal ball so it is impossible to predict with certainty the consequence of moving this YOS to ED (however strongly people on each side do assert their views).

On the one hand it could be a positive thing for those attending and the logic that any offenders comitting crime would want to avoid areas where they are known could have merit and hence ED gets an indirect protection.

On the other hand there could be problems - the logic of greater flow of offenders through the area leading to more crime in the area and potentially specific gang activity targeting of those attending etc appears to have precedent

On balance I tend to fear the latter (I know, it's terrible, the NIMBY in me...) and admittedly selfishly would rather not role the dice.

2 Questions:

1) If there were 2 realities and people could choose to live in the ED with the YOS in it or the other ED without it then which would you choose? Answer honestly. If the latter then you are actually slightly against it even if you can't bring yourself to come out and say it.

2) If this YOS does move to ED (by popular demand) then are the good people of ED going to actually try to engage with the attendees and show them the love. Or, having expressed the right sentiments on this forum, will they get on with their lives, ignore them and possibly walk the other way to avoid any potential issues?

[DJKillaQueen]

One story of a young man (involved in some pretty awful stuff) and ultimately jailed for assisted rape should not be taken as the overview on this. The Aylesbury has been a particularly troubled estate (that's one of the resons it is being knocked down and rebuilt). Placing a centre for anything within it has faced challenges. Many of those attending lived on it's doorstep (with gang culture always a factor of local life). ED is a different environment altogether and I believe that will make some difference. There are gangs in ED too btw but their impact on the local aea is not as strong as it is in some other areas. A gang member waiting outside to bully another has no impact on anyone but the person being bullied. And there is a specialised YOS to deal with gang related issues. From the details you give though...this particular teen was a lost cause and that's why he's now in jail.

You say 'On Balance' Senor but what do you base that on? One case you sat as a juror on? Why not look at the other side, and the success stories of the YOS? Then you may be able to truly have a balanced view.

As someone else pointed out, we already have other services in the area dealing with other kinds of vulnerable or criminal people. And thank goodness there are people prepared to deal/engage with them.

I don't think anyone does look at whether a YOS operates in an area before moving to it anyway.....most people would expect most areas of London to have such a thing, given the level of teenage crime that happens everywhere - including in ED. I remember some of the same criticisms being levelled at the Harris Boys Academy - that the school would bring lots of teens not local to the area and that would lead to trouble. That's one of the reasons the boys aren't allowed to walk through the park to or from school. Yes there have been a few incidents but nothing to really impact on local crime levels. See what I mean about fears not based in evidence?

I suspect most of the 'good people' of ED won't even notice the unit is there tbh. There is no right sentiment to be had either....just common sense. ED is not an island, or a gated community, untouched by anything else that goes on in London. It has many layers like any area. Some us engage with all of tose layers, and thank goodness we do....because the goldfish bowls of some others wouldn't be possible if we didn't.

[Senor Chevalier]

SKIP THIS BIT IF YOU ARE BORED OR SHORT ON TIME:

DJ "On balance" refers to where I come out when considering my own conflicting views on the matter. It was not some kind of wider judgment. I said "On balance I tend to think" not "On balance the outcome would definitively be as follows". I thought that was clear.

"Show me the evidence" seems to be your go to argument which you reach for with increasing frequency whereas in reality we are all just guessing here... This is a frequent and tedious distraction to the flow of these discussions as people have to take time out to deal with it.

READ ON FROM HERE:

I think your final "ED is not an island" comment is the more persuasive.

Perhaps the simple summary is to say that whilst, yes there may be consequences, we are not isolated from the rest of London and it would be naive and arrogant to expect special treatment.

This line of reasoning is more compelling than the "there wouldn't be any issues - go on prove it - show me the evidence" tack that was taken earlier when clearly there is a distinct possibility that there may be consequences that may or may not be borne out in time.

[DJKillaQueen]

lol senor....what I was alluding to is that there is plenty of evidence of the sucesses of the YOS. I just think it is more constructive to look at those as well rather than highlighting just the failures.

Yes there will be some problems but I think they will be minor and easily dealt with by those that operate the YOS, because there's a history of good management there too.

Southwark has one of the biggest challenges regarding youth offenders, but it also does better than many in tackling it. The borough has one of the lowest offending rates of young people in care for example - and that's a group that are particular vulnerable. That fact alone should instill some confindence in those that run the units I think.

[Senor Chevalier]

The success stories are presumably in terms of reduced reoffending rates benefitting the individual kids and the various areas that they would otherwise have committed crimes in. The downside risks are the local issues that might arise in and around the YOS. So really it is up to ED to step up and do its bit for the wider benefit of Southwark and London. Maybe we should stick it in Dulwich Village.

[DJKillaQueen]

Success means kids becoming productive members of society and in turn benefitting all of us. The kid that's now a car mechanic instead of a career criminal might fix your car one day, or stop to help you whilst broken down at the roadside. More importantly he's paying taxes that in turn help fund your NHS, schools etc. The alternate would have been a kid costing us money to keep him locked up. So to value success only in terms of the young person themself and their local area is short sighted. The more of these kids that are turned around the better for ALL of us, and in turn, we all have a moral obilgation to help facilitate that.

[Senor Chevalier]

Yes, I agree with the broader benefits. So the difficulty is that downside is tangible / direct whereas upside is broader and less immediately obvious.

Interesting parallel with the discussions on standing one's ground in the face of threats. If we all refuse to be victims to petty crime (recent threads on phone muggings, jogger versus gang etc etc) then the immediate downside is quite tangible - the risk of personal harm in specific situations - whereas the upside is to society as a whole for not allowing a culture of crime (why are we all saying crimanility now?) and the expectation of getting away with it to flourish.

[karter]

*throws DJKQ into solitary confinement to cool off*

[Ridgley]

Solutions wrote

-------------------------

By the way for those who make sweeping statements about white and middle class people, I am white and middle class, I spend most of my working week contributing to society not only with a sense of responsibility but with passion and my appeal is for more listening and open mindedness. Thank you.

Good one you Sir/Madam for what you do it is petty some people on this thread are so quick to judge and condem all youths

[DJKillaQueen]

So the difficulty is that downside is tangible / direct whereas upside is broader and less immediately obvious.

Those are all valid points Senor......it's about getting some kind of manageable balance in the end isn't it...where the risk is minimal, and the effect maximum. We'd all, in an ideal world, love to live in a crime free society. That's never going to happen, even if inequality no longer existed. But a community that works together can reduce the impact of crime, and it can impact in a positive way on those committing crime.

There are reasons why we have inequality. There are reasons why some grow up in negative ommunities and others grow up in privilege. Most of those things are created by us, and self perservation and greed are dominent factors in creating those things. And then of course there's fear....fear of the unkown perhaps in this case. Fear certainly pervades when finding ways to 'take on' those who want to make us afraid. Again...it's harder for a criminal to take on a whole community than an individual. Until people start finding time for their community and put in some effort to create that better, safer, society, nothing will change. And community means fighting for better things for all the kids within it...not just your own. We need to lose some of the selfishness was see all around too.

My genuine feeling is that ED is not the Aylesbury and that in itself will have a positive impact. I don't think there will be any noticeable increase in crime in the area as a result either. Any problems will be local to the YOS and those attending and will be effectively dealt with by them. The SNT will I'm sure play a role too in helping to ensure there are no major problems.

Just to give a case in point. We have a youth club in our tenants hall that has been running for 18 months now. It is overseen by 'kickstart' who provide qualified youth workers etc. When it was first suggested to the committe, and presented that young people from not just the local are would attend, the same concerns were raised about crime and gang activity (because the youth service said it would be used by some kids who can't go to youth clubs in their local areas because of gang problems). In 18 months there has only been one incident - where one boy stole a mobile phone from another boy (known to him) after leaving the club. There is more opportunity for gangs to form and hang out as part of a club surely? But it just hasn't happened. Why? Because it's supervised and because it's not on the doorstep of where these teens live. The teens go back to their home grounds afterwards. The only impact on the local community is them nattering at the bus stop as they wait for their bus in the evening.

If I'm proven wrong and ED becomes crime central after the YOS moves in.......I'll be the first to eat humble pie. I'll even run naked around Peckham Rye as punishment lol - I'm that sure the more extreme fears of some are unfounded.

[DJKillaQueen]

karter Wrote:

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> *throws DJKQ into solitary confinement to cool

> off*

Too late...I just offered to run naked around Peckham Rye if ED becomes downtown LA (inserts the 'ooh er missus' icon).

[Senor Chevalier]

The yoof need to be informed of this for it to be an effective deterrant...

[Juande]

I agree with the message from Northenpup

Myself I have been living in East Dulwich rd for over 10years, now lives with my partner and our 2 months old daughter and I have no problem with the Youth offenders unit in my road..?

There are plenty of units - social or otherwise already in the area, as well as hostels and housing (at least I know the one in east dulwich rd)?

As member of a broad?community (NOT the east dulwich island) I accept the need for these institutions and the fact that sometimes will be in the back of my garden..

I was not expecting the lib dem councillor stands regarding the site, however nothing surprise me of lib dem these days.

Time will pass and that fear will disappear as days will be the same...

[Marmora Man]

hpsaucey Wrote:

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> DJKillaQueen Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > There is absolutely no reason why this unit

> should

> > not be relocated here. ED and it's surrounding

> > areas have their own fair share of youth

> > offenders.

>

> Hear hear! Why NOT here?????

Agree

[cassidy]

karter Wrote:

> Anyway, there's nothing anyone can do to stop

> this. Fostering unit moved out on Thursday, the

> place needs a refurb then the new youth offending

> teams moves in. I am not against this even though

> our house was burgled by 3 black youths a few

> weeks ago (our neighbour saw them). They need

> rehabilitating.

Just wondering the reason for identifying your burglers as black that isn't really the point here as the YOS service users will be of all races as the latest news coverage has shown when reporting on the recent riots.

No-one ever wants these services on their doorsteps but maybe having it on the outskirts of Peckham means they will hopefully attend appointments without fear of being attacked by other gang members from their local area.

[hpsaucey]

Interesting initiative here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-14516793

[nicolajaneG]

Biggest criminals???? er no they are all in the clink or on the way. A YOT is really not worthy of the concern and hysteria being generated. I manage staff in one in another Borough and residents don't even know its there.

Trust me if the naughty youths are engaging you don't need to worry about them. worry about the ones who don't pitch up or get caught.

[MissNoodlesHats]

Wow a conversation that's intelligent, thought provoking mostly , challenging and still running. The forum yocals must all be out on a knees up as the wheels have not fallen of this one yet !

[sarahstrawberries]

DJKillaQueen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> One story of a young man (involved in some pretty

> awful stuff) and ultimately jailed for assisted

> rape should not be taken as the overview on this.

> The Aylesbury has been a particularly troubled

> estate (that's one of the resons it is being

> knocked down and rebuilt). Placing a centre for

> anything within it has faced challenges. Many of

> those attending lived on it's doorstep (with gang

> culture always a factor of local life). ED is a

> different environment altogether and I believe

> that will make some difference. There are gangs in

> ED too btw but their impact on the local aea is

> not as strong as it is in some other areas. A gang

> member waiting outside to bully another has no

> impact on anyone but the person being bullied. And

> there is a specialised YOS to deal with gang

> related issues. From the details you give

> though...this particular teen was a lost cause and

> that's why he's now in jail.

>

>

No, absolutely shouldn't be taken as the overview, and wasn't intended to be such. You say the Aylesbury is being knocked down and rebuilt, however I saw a news story a couple of months ago that said Cameron had pulled the funding and so now, unless they can find other means of funding the cost, it will stay for the foreseeable future... I sincerely hope this is not the case. Does anybody know anything else about this?

As far as I'm concerned, the more we can do to break this cycle of crime/bullying/gang activity, the better.

I would like to think that the teen I spoke about is not a lost cause, however I feel he may well be.

[karter]

Cassidy, i would have written 3 white youths if they were white. Chillax dude.

[LadyDeliah]

PeckhamRose Wrote:

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> "East Dulwich Road, eh? So just a stone's throw

> from the Tesco..." Loz wrote on page one.

> Anyone else even trying to hide a snigger at this

> faux pas?

Total class!

[LadyDeliah]

Craig83 Wrote:

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> OK - so you're admitting that (a) you live next

> door to wrong doers (b) you've had you're car

> vandalised and your garage broken into. Mmm...

> wonder who did that?

>

> Likewise you please spare me the whole 'Elizabeth

> Fry' routine. Just because you help people who

> actively decide to go against the system it

> doesn't mean you're respected by them enough for

> them to spare them your house / car / garage.

>

> Once a stinking criminal, always a stinking

> criminal ISN'T far off the mark. Explain exactly

> how 'many' sort themselves out / go on to commit

> unseen crimes that are never accounted for.

> You've seen it on the TV - the skanks of this

> country think everyone owes them something and

> they'll take regardless or being caught or whether

> they've already been caught

What a charmer!

One a mindless moron, always a mindless moron.

[LadyDeliah]

I really want to do something with the kids in Peckham. I am working for myself nowadays so have more free time and have always wanted to set up a community law school to teach law to people who are disenfranchised.

I think now might be a good time for me to get started on this project, but it is still embryonic.

I am hoping it could be some kind of National open source type charity to try to engage other lawyers in other areas of the country to do the same kind of thing I want to do.

I was impressed with Hugo Chavez printing articles of the Venezualan constitution on bags of rice etc for poor people to learn about their rights and I think that would be part of what I want to do. I also think that empowering the voiceless to fight their issues through the legal system might go some way to averting the kind of frustration and anger that boiled over in the recent riots.

I am hoping that it could lead to autonomous, community law schools and maybe even eventually community legal advice services encorporated into the schools.

I would really appreciate any feedback on my idea from people.

Would anyone else be interested? I think the crap education offered to kids in areas like Peckham needs some overhauling and I don't think the main organs of state are capable or willing to put in the effort to make changes.

If people had an intellectual outlet, whether it's law or something else, I think it can only be a good thing. I like the idea of open classes that follow a GCSE curriculum, so they can drop in when they feel like it, or of they want to, get their bits of paper and maybe move onto higher level studying.

With the education system in massive crisis, maybe there will be no choice but for outside agencies to start plugging the gaps.

What say you oh, EDF braniacs?