Showing our support for the ED community and London

[james84]

Just an idea, but after being around last night and seeing the positive attitud of everyone down Lordship Lane, maybe it would be a good idea for everyone to get together and show their support for local businesses and the community by getting out and filling the pubs and restaurants in the area tonight.

Just to start making everyone feel safe again and show that we wont be forced to stay in our houses any more. We could get some kind of street party atmosphere going down Lorship Lane to relieve some of the tension that has been around the past couple of nights....

[SteveUK1978]

Made the same point on another thread - I fully agree. Time to get out and show some community spirit.

[Annie N]

It was pretty busy last night. Franklins, The Palmeston and EDT were heaving. Community spirit alive and well.

[ratty]

Can't afford it. Tory Cuts you see!

[Thomas Micklewright]

yes ED was very busy last night - especially along LL - looked weird without all the outside street furniture.

[bob]

Was it the EDT last night for a few, most of the Curry house's open.

Bob S

[Damian H]

This is all a nice idea but the problem as I see it is this - the moment a bunch of 'yoofs' with hoodies or scarves over their faces would turn up, all these merry revellers would make their excuses and b**ger off home and the shop-keepers would draw down the shutters.

The upshot is that we would be celebrating and supporting the community only with the tacit approval of the thugs - i.e. on condition they didn't turn up. That is preposterous. It's the same with this absurd 'clean up the riot' nonsense. The message of that is "let's hide snivelling in fear when the riot is going on and then come out and clean up someone else's mess afterwards and believe it makes us brave and community spirited."

If we were brave and community-spirited we would be protecting our community and facing down these hoods in the first place.

[ralee]

Does anyone know if sainsburys is open tonight? I know they have been taking security seriously in the last few days and shutting up shop early.

[gk]

Damian,

I think you're being extremely harsh deriding people for being scared and not rushing out with baseball bats during the riots. It was such a shocking thing to happen and no one knew what would happen next. Did you rush out with a baseball bat??

And why rubbish people for trying to draw something positive out of this whole sorry mess? It's good that people pulled together to clean up the mess. The first step to getting over all of this is to draw on community spirit, build on that. That will help break the barrier of fear and then maybe next time a riot erupts, we won't 'hide, snivelling with fear', but instead we might be able to trust that if we rush out to protect our area, our neighbour will be out there too. Baby steps.

[Damian H]

No I didn't rush out with a baseball bat and I am not suggesting that anyone does something so crude. However, now that I have had time to be aware of and digest what has happened, I think I am suggesting something a little more robust than 'let's sweep up the mess and agree to have a pint and a curry in a local hostelry to show our support'. That latter point is nothing more than making some sort of pseudo-triumph out of exercising the right to do what we have done before with impunity. I am sure that the thugs responsible for all this are laughing even more that many of the good people of ED actually crept sheep-like down to Peckham to clean up the mess created by these hoods in their own neighbourhood! How much more of this masochism do we have to watch until someone says enough?

I think that some of the responses to what has gone on are really lilly-livered, to be honest, and remind me of the United People's Front of Judea (or was it the Judean United People's Front) in the Life of Brian trying to give the impression of taking action by passing meaningless resolutions instead of doing anything gutsy.

I make no apology for wha I suggest and the comments I have made and if some people thing I am being harsh then so be it. I doubt the baby steps you suggest would actually go anywhere if we start with something as 'radical' as 'let's defy the thugs by having a drink or a meal on LL when they aren't around.'

[gk]

I understand what you're saying damian, and I do respect it. I concur that having a drink on LL is not enough (although, it couldn't hurt). And they may well be laughing at anyone going down to Peckham to clean up the mess, but who cares? I can respect myself more for having done it. And most people that live in Peckham had nothing to do with the rioting so why not lend a helping hand?

Anyway, what's your more robust solution? (or have you already detailed that in previous posts?)

[sambobia]

I suspect if the Lane is busy with locals, with a few hefty police patrolling, this will be deterrent enough.

[KidKruger]

"...we would be protecting our community and facing down these hoods in the first place"

Well who wants to come out with me tonight and smack a few hoodies then, that'll show 'em who's boss around here.

NOT.

Damian H.

On the night when the riots were in Peckham and some portion of it was heading down here towards ED I walked around ED a bit and noticed that it was deathly quiet, literally no-one around, now and again a lad in a hoodie would pass, then another, then another, often carrying something wrapped up in a bag or coat. I did ask a small bunch of lads at one point if they were going to Peckham and there answer was evasive, so probably they were headed there or ED Tescos.

Point is, I was totally on my own there was zero chance of any coppers and if I'd ended-up exchanging bad words with anyone they could have come round later and done literally what they wanted. no police. no fire brigade (or perhaps belated attendance). There was no collective initiative to show a 'presence' in my area, which I would actually have preferred - if done calmly in a non-provocative way. So I turned my house lights off, put a couple of tools by the front door and ran a hosepipe from back garden down the hall to my front door. So I could take on a character or two if I had to plus hopefully make headway on any fire if it started.

It doesn't feel nice to stay in and hope you're not hassled, but that's the only thing you can do in a situation like that, be ready to do what you can if it kicks off, to protect your people and your home (or your neighbours etc if necessary), if needs be.

To slag-off an entire local population for not having somehow coordinated a 'defend our streets' campaign or having not coincidentally and individually decided to go make a stand locally is sort of erroneous. There was nothing to make a stand against and it's a very thin line between being seen to protect an area and being seen as out looking for some bother.

People were very likely nervous and possibly have partners / families they do not want to leave.

I think I understand what you're criticising but I do not understand what you are suggesting local people in ED should have done. You clearly find what people are saying is pathetic, but what do you propose should have / should be done ?

[benmorg]

Damian H Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> No I didn't rush out with a baseball bat and I am

> not suggesting that anyone does something so

> crude. However, now that I have had time to be

> aware of and digest what has happened, I think I

> am suggesting something a little more robust than

> 'let's sweep up the mess and agree to have a pint

> and a curry in a local hostelry to show our

> support'. That latter point is nothing more than

> making some sort of pseudo-triumph out of

> exercising the right to do what we have done

> before with impunity. I am sure that the thugs

> responsible for all this are laughing even more

> that many of the good people of ED actually crept

> sheep-like down to Peckham to clean up the mess

> created by these hoods in their own neighbourhood!

> How much more of this masochism do we have to

> watch until someone says enough?

>

> I think that some of the responses to what has

> gone on are really lilly-livered, to be honest,

> and remind me of the United People's Front of

> Judea (or was it the Judean United People's Front)

> in the Life of Brian trying to give the impression

> of taking action by passing meaningless

> resolutions instead of doing anything gutsy.

>

> I make no apology for wha I suggest and the

> comments I have made and if some people thing I am

> being harsh then so be it. I doubt the baby steps

> you suggest would actually go anywhere if we start

> with something as 'radical' as 'let's defy the

> thugs by having a drink or a meal on LL when they

> aren't around.'

Have you thought through how the vigilante system will work? Will a gang of men with baseball bats wander round the street looking for hoodies? Or simply stand outside shops on Lordship Lane? What happens when the hoodies turn up? If they run off, will you chase them waving the baseball bats. What happens if they fight or someone gets clobbered with a baseball bat and his mates then retaliate? It's all very well fantasizing about some Magnificent Seven style battle in which the good guys all win, but the reality is likely to be a chaotic and unpredictable mess that doesn't work out quite how you'd planned.

[Damian H]

I am not talking retrospectively, KK, as I did very much the same as you did. I am taking about what could be done going forward. There is a thread on here proposing some sort of co-ordinated stand should the situation deteriorate again and, frankly, some of the responses on it have ben pretty pathetic.

I think you did the right thing on your own by ot tackling anyone and that is exactly why some sort of group presence would be desirable. I am objecting to those who are greeting the proposed future possibilities of community resolve on the other thread with insipid, wishy-washy objections.

I also think it is very weak to think that it is some sort of triumphant stand or gesture of defance to wait until the trouble is over, go out and have a drink or a meal and think that is some powerful declaration of defiance.

The thugs must be having a right old chuckle. They go out and riot, loot shops in their own area and then put their feet up (wearing the trainers they have pinched from Footlocker) to watch dvds on their newly stolen wide-screen TVs. Then they watch while a bunch of middle-class do-gooders from East Dulwich come down and clear up their mess. If any of them bother reading this forum I doubt they wll take it as to much of an affront or challenge to their criminal activities to know that we are deiantly eating fish and chips or enjoying a 'there'll always be an England' style drink on LL, when they know full well that all the drinkers and diners would scurry off home the moment a handful of them marched up LL with scarves over their faces.

[gk]

But Damian, you still haven't proposed what your idea is looking forward?? By all means, tear down what other lilly-livered threaders are proposing but only if you can propose an alternative?

[benmorg]

Damian H Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I am not talking retrospectively, KK, as I did

> very much the same as you did. I am taking about

> what could be done going forward. There is a

> thread on here proposing some sort of co-ordinated

> stand should the situation deteriorate again and,

> frankly, some of the responses on it have ben

> pretty pathetic.

>

> I think you did the right thing on your own by ot

> tackling anyone and that is exactly why some sort

> of group presence would be desirable. I am

> objecting to those who are greeting the proposed

> future possibilities of community resolve on the

> other thread with insipid, wishy-washy

> objections.

>

> I also think it is very weak to think that it is

> some sort of triumphant stand or gesture of

> defance to wait until the trouble is over, go out

> and have a drink or a meal and think that is some

> powerful declaration of defiance.

>

> The thugs must be having a right old chuckle.

> They go out and riot, loot shops in their own area

> and then put their feet up (wearing the trainers

> they have pinched from Footlocker) to watch dvds

> on their newly stolen wide-screen TVs. Then they

> watch while a bunch of middle-class do-gooders

> from East Dulwich come down and clear up their

> mess. If any of them bother reading this forum I

> doubt they wll take it as to much of an affront or

> challenge to their criminal activities to know

> that we are deiantly eating fish and chips or

> enjoying a 'there'll always be an England' style

> drink on LL, when they know full well that all the

> drinkers and diners would scurry off home the

> moment a handful of them marched up LL with

> scarves over their faces.

What's your take on the English Defence League - good or bad?

[Lozellen]

Regardless of impact in deterring riots, people making an extra effort to go out and use the local businesses might help them in some way for the loss of business they've had from very reduced trading hours the last couple of days, lack of customers and possible damage or loss of stock.

On the other side of things, I don't think you can make assumptions about people because they didn't go out and confront the rioters. I was actually away with work for the evening and decided based on the traffic reports and multiple road closures that arriving back in London after midnight expecting to easily find a route home wasn't a great idea. However as a young female who lives alone and generally tries to take the most door to door route home at night, I certainly wouldn't have been the first person out there inciting a community fight back. Once something more substantial is organised there is safety in numbers, but it's very hard to be that first person prepared to make a stand. LASTLY there is no shame in helping to bring a community back to normal. I think business as usual and showing that no matter what happens we'll pick ourselves up and carry on actually sends quite a strong message.

[Damian H]

I believe that soltions have been put forward on the other thread on his subject but let me elaborate. Should the situation kick off again and it lok like the police will not be ableto meanngfully respond, the suggestion is that those who agree to be involved establish some sort of picket or watch at the periphery of ED. This could be arranged on a rota basis. Exchanging phone numbers and perhaps a couple of these people having cars woud enable some sort of oommunication and mobility. Any suspicious looking individuals coming into ED could be politely approached and asked wher they are going and what their intentions are. Th very fact that a group of people are aware of their presence, are observing them and are ready to challenge them might well have a considerable deterrent effect on its own. If someone brought along a video camera and was filming the entire mater and others were taking photos etc, that would be a further deterent as these little toads are creatures of anonymity. These people are after easy pickings and expect zero or minimal resistance.

Do you really think they put in the windows of a shop and try to make off with goods if there are a dozen or so determined people standing there and saying that they will actively prevent that?

It is exactly the sort of community action tactics that worked in some Turkish areas of London and that the Sikh community used near Ealing to protect their temples. It has also been used with great effect in Northern Ireland. It is also the type of community initiative that completely cleared up the Balsall Heath red light district in Birmingham.

[gk]

Yeah, it's not a bad idea at all. But the community spirit/clean-up-together/support-local-business and community-watch/rota-system paradigms are not mutually exclusive.

[benmorg]

Damian H Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I believe that soltions have been put forward on

> the other thread on his subject but let me

> elaborate. Should the situation kick off again

> and it lok like the police will not be ableto

> meanngfully respond, the suggestion is that those

> who agree to be involved establish some sort of

> picket or watch at the periphery of ED. This

> could be arranged on a rota basis. Exchanging

> phone numbers and perhaps a couple of these people

> having cars woud enable some sort of oommunication

> and mobility. Any suspicious looking individuals

> coming into ED could be politely approached and

> asked wher they are going and what their

> intentions are. Th very fact that a group of

> people are aware of their presence, are observing

> them and are ready to challenge them might well

> have a considerable deterrent effect on its own.

> If someone brought along a video camera and was

> filming the entire mater and others were taking

> photos etc, that would be a further deterent as

> these little toads are creatures of anonymity.

> These people are after easy pickings and expect

> zero or minimal resistance.

>

> Do you really think they put in the windows of a

> shop and try to make off with goods if there are a

> dozen or so determined people standing there and

> saying that they will actively prevent that?

>

> It is exactly the sort of community action tactics

> that worked in some Turkish areas of London and

> that the Sikh community used near Ealing to

> protect their temples. It has also been used with

> great effect in Northern Ireland. It is also the

> type of community initiative that completely

> cleared up the Balsall Heath red light district in

> Birmingham.

So if a gang of 50 hoodies come running up Peckham Rye to ED, there will only be one or two people standing on the corner to repel them? Sorry, that's not going to make a difference. You need to match the numbers. Your going to need thousands of volunteers permanently stationed around ED.

[Damian H]

Yesterday, mid afternoon, there was a rumour of a gang moving down LL from the library end. There were dozens of shopkeepers standing outside their shops, trying to see what was going on, chatting and getting ready to pull down the shutters.

I thought to myself that if even half of them had worked together and stood their ground in front of any such mob, the threat would have disappeared off somewhereelse for easier pickings.

[Applespider]

I'm not disagreeing with Damian in terms of having a group to try to turn around trouble but equally, it's harder to respond if everyone is sat at home watching their non-looted TV set and having to run around to look for their paid-for trainers. If there is a good cross-section out using the pubs and sitting outside, then there is a on-the-scene deterrent rather than leaving our high streets deserted. Yes, it means that if we're out and about, we're doing so on the understanding that we'd try to stand up to yobs rather than rushing home but I think that's what most here are suggesting rather than just going out for a pint.

[benmorg]

Just an idea, but maybe ED residents could put their Blackberries to work and set up a private social network for use by neighbourhood watch lookouts or anyone else who wants to join. If anyone using the network sees hoodie gangs on their street or witnesses criminal behaviour, they could send a message to the network so the community is instantly aware of the threat, whether people are in the pub or at home. At least people could then take steps to protect themselves and/or respond if they feel that is sensible.

[Damian H]

That's the spirit, folks.