police in east dulwich (or "some kids detained on Grove Vale")

[Otta]

For the most part, I agree with StraferJack's long post. However, I do tend to agree with magoie that some sections of the media would quickly accuse the police of heavy handedness if they waded in.

They are damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

[solrac]

solrac Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> In reference to the disturbance, I can assure you

> they were up to no good as myself and quite a few

> others stopped them from breaking into the small

> off license a few doors down from Budha Jazz,

> after getting missiles and signs thrown at us we

> managed to scare them off by basically standing

> our ground, even though at least one of the

> looters had a hammer.

>

> It is that conjoined community spirit that will

> let these horrible elements of our society realize

> that they cannot do what they want and get away

> with it because they think we are all scared of

> them, they will understand that that sort of

> behaviour will not be tolerated.

>

> And all you people moaning about the police,

> politicians etc, hows about taking a stand for

> your own community against this criminality and

> helping them, rather than questioning the routes

> they have to take to tackle this type of mindless

> crime, if we all stood up a little more rather

> than turn a blind eye or cross over and think, "oh

> well it's got nothing to do with me" maybe we can

> get our society back.

[StraferJack]

If some sections of the media were to do that, I would say there is a time and a place to stand up to that kind of stuff. And these riots are as good an example as any

The problem is the police have made a rod for their own back by pulling some of the stuff they have in the past, and then compounding those mistakes by lying and being evasive.

But at a basic level they have a job to do. And this week was that job. Everything else is posturing

If any paper decided to play that ?heavy handed? card I?m sure their readers would be quick to pull them up on it

[Green Goose]

edresi10 Wrote:

>

> Police in London were ordered to "stand and

> observe" rather than intervene or confront.

This stupid "stand and observe" policy was imposed on our squaddies in Iraq and Afghanistan, so you would have a situation where a Taliban would be observed planting an I.E.D. and our squaddies were not allowed to take him out.

In fact they were not allowed to shoot any Taliban unless that ONE particular Taliba was actively shooting at them at that precise time. Not allowed also if the Taliban had been shooting 2 minutes previously but had later stopped firing.

That is why our army became a laughing stock in Iraq and was totally ineffective during its last 3 years there. And it is why we have so many brave young lads blown up in Afghanistan by IEDs.

Why don't you liberals get real?

gg

[cmck83]

>

> How about we try seeing if when the police and

> other agents of the state treat people with

> respect, they get more respect in return? Novel

> idea, but who knows, it might just work!

They don't have respect for anyone themselves though! People don't bring their kids up properly anymore. Kids are not taught empathy or respect, that's were all this stems from.

[twofourseven]

In response to BB100, I agree with your points.

It really is as simple as this, when we as kids wanted something we either a) harassed our parent/s for it (I was brought up by my late single-mum) or b) went out to work and get the money for it. If it was not the trainers that everyone else had I felt sh*t. Then I discovered that if I worked harder I got more money and got the the flash Adidas.

There is a problem with this though, jobs. There are not any jobs for kids to do. And there are no summer activities for kids - or workshops, or anything, which is why, and as you say, if society doesn't care then why should they. That though does not excuse what has happened. The basic principle of right and wrong is no longer in place and this is the said issue.

I stand by what I said, if kinds bring home goods looted goods then parents should be able to discipline them accordingly and in private. Problem here is that they themselves might get done by Social Services.

You need both the stick and the carrot. And I am with you on the need for activities for kids. And if the council can't fund 'em them perhaps the community should rally round and sort something out. Or is it too much about me, rather than we?

Just sayin!

[edresi10]

Sorry but I find the defense of "there are no summer activities for kids" an absolute joke, the fact is I never had any summer activities and the majority of people I know didnt either, but it didnt mean that that we hung around on street corners praying on individuals, because we were bored!!!! And frankly how what sort of kids are these that need to be "entertained" otherwise they will go out looting!!1 The fact is these kids are prepared to break the law, they have no respect for it, for authroity or other members of their communities, which is why they are quite happy wrecking their own high streets and areas.

The cuts to youth clubs and activities ahve nothing to do with it, the types of kids who used these were the type of kids that wouldnt go out with the intention of commiting crimes, the nice kids.

[northlondoner]

sebadoh Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Chick Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > How do you know they were little criminals?

> > Innocent until proven guilty etc. Police want

> to

> > do a lot more to them? Like what, give them a

> good

> > kicking?

> >

> > How old were these little ciminals?

>

> They were running away from the police, so unless

> they were training for the olympics they were up

> to something. And 5 police cars do not chase

> people for nothing. Probably around 16 years old.

>

>

> It was good to see action being taken, especially

> outside my flat.

They're running from the police so they must be guilty. Jeez this kind of ass-backwards simple mindedness barely merits a response. Did broadcasts from earth about a fellow called Ian Tomlinson reach your planet? What's the weather like there, btw?

[lostcat]

So here we have it, scratch the surface of the east dulwich urban idyll and we have a bunch of rabid reactionaries..I wonder how the current crop of middle class east dulwich offspring will turn out. Their enormous designer buggies block the pavements, they rampage and scream through the cafes and shops to be met only with adoring words and glances from parents who seem unaware of anyone else, let alone imparting respect for others. These children are taught that the world revolves around them and no doubt they will grow up expecting and receiving benefits that many of these 'feral' rioters you talk about will never know.

[northlondoner]

Green Goose Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The politicians, the bleeding heart liberals, the

> PC brigade, the smart layers paid from legal aid

> and the lenient judges have reduced the police

> force into a powerless, disrespected and

> ineffectual body. They all should be totally

> ashamed of themselves.

>

> When are the spineless English authorities going

> to actually do something to save this country from

> total disintegration?

>

> Just watch the Yobs go to court and get a slap on

> the wrist as usual.

>

> Where I came from a curfew would have been

> declared and any looters breaking the curfew would

> be shot on sight.

>

> Elsewhere, like in Russia, the police would simply

> drive a truck at speed into any crowd that was

> looting and committing arson. If anyone turned up

> at hospital later for treatment they would be

> arrested.

>

> People dont do crime if they know they will be

> caught and severly punished. Fact!

Mate you sound utterly deranged. Fact. If you miss the fatherland so much......

[northlondoner]

Spaceman Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Don't worry Green Goose, there's plenty of people

> out there who agree with you.

> Unfortunately though it's usually the liberals

> that kick up a fuss and get the

> politicians to listen to them. Maybe one day

> they'll wake up and find a few

> armed criminals standing over them in there

> bedroom and have a rethink

Good choice of username.

[Loz]

For the most part, I agree with StraferJack's long post. However, I do tend to agree with magoie that some sections of the media would quickly accuse the police of heavy handedness if they waded in.

They are damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

You are, of course, correct and there are always some that will criticise the police no matter what (as northlondoner's posts demonstrate). But I think the police have picked their battles poorly in the past, going in hard at relatively peaceful demonstrations and kettling innocent by-standers, then finding themselves hamstrung when trouble really kicks off.

As a liberal myself, I agree fully with SJ - had the police gone in hard this time around, I would be applauding, not condemning them. But whatever, I sure as hell applaud them anyway, just for having the balls to be out there.

[northlondoner]

LadyDeliah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> So let's look at the time of heavy handed policing

> and phusicaal punishment by teachers. The 1980's

> riots came about because of this, not because of

> an absence of this.

>

> The current harrssment by police in their stop and

> search policies of innocent, but profile-fitting,

> inner city youth has caused massive resentment.

>

> How about we try seeing if when the police and

> other agents of the state treat people with

> respect, they get more respect in return? Novel

> idea, but who knows, it might just work!

Correct analysis.

[Otta]

Totally agree that the police haven't exactly done much for their own rep over the years.

[james84]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Totally agree that the police haven't exactly done

> much for their own rep over the years.

Im sorry but the police can do no right in the eyes of the public- if they use force they are being to heavy handed, if they dont then they are being to soft. Lets be fair to them they do a bloody good job with limited resources, there is no wide sopread corruption in the police force like in other countries, they are well run and take a lot of crap. They are one of those institutions where their failures and front page news but their successes are rarely reported.

The stop and search practice that tehy use works, its sad, but it does. And if any one of us was in their position you would be stopping and searching the same people with the same profile. It is very sad but unfortunately true.

Yes there have been issues concerning the police eg the phone hacking, teh death of the Millwall fan during the G20 etc etc, but im sorry the guys who have been out on our streets working to restore order and safety deerve a lot more respect.

[northlondoner]

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> For the most part, I agree with StraferJack's long

> post. However, I do tend to agree with magoie that

> some sections of the media would quickly accuse

> the police of heavy handedness if they waded in.

>

> They are damned if they do, and damned if they

> don't.

>

> You are, of course, correct and there are always

> some that will criticise the police no matter what

> (as northlondoner's posts demonstrate). But I

> think the police have picked their battles poorly

> in the past, going in hard at relatively peaceful

> demonstrations and kettling innocent by-standers,

> then finding themselves hamstrung when trouble

> really kicks off.

>

> As a liberal myself, I agree fully with SJ - had

> the police gone in hard this time around, I would

> be applauding, not condemning them. But whatever,

> I sure as hell applaud them anyway, just for

> having the balls to be out there.

Incorrect representation of my position. Police are essential to proper running of society. I applaud them by and large. Very close friend's daughter is special constable. Very brave. I worry about her during this time. But some police fall well below acceptable standards of conduct and act to erode vital support. Silly and naive to hide from that. My basic point is that this country has more dialogue with the freaking Talban than it has with vast swathes of its own population - as demonstrated by some of the sillier posts on here. I can't claim to know why the riots are happening - but I do know that we've got a major structural problem on our hands. Won't be solved by the drooling ranters we see coming out of the woodwork. And it's not a question of whether a solution is liberal or conservative - many folk hold a healthy, honest mix of both approaches. It just gets my goat when we get slack jawed simple mindedness instead of actual thought - be it liberal or conservative.

[cmck83]

lostcat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> So here we have it, scratch the surface of the

> east dulwich urban idyll and we have a bunch of

> rabid reactionaries..I wonder how the current crop

> of middle class east dulwich offspring will turn

> out. Their enormous designer buggies block the

> pavements, they rampage and scream through the

> cafes and shops to be met only with adoring words

> and glances from parents who seem unaware of

> anyone else, let alone imparting respect for

> others. These children are taught that the world

> revolves around them and no doubt they will grow

> up expecting and receiving benefits that many of

> these 'feral' rioters you talk about will never

> know.

I think those kinds of kids are just as bad to be fair. Why can't people just teach their kids manners! Children at both extremes of the spectrum need to be taught that the world doesn't revolve around them.

[StraferJack]

and I've seen them accorded nothing but respect James

but "Im sorry but the police can do no right in the eyes of the public" is just made up nonsense

they problem I have is that when excessive forces wasn't required in the past they have piled in.

When it was required they didn't. That's not down to the brave frontline officers but it is bad management. I'm not as cynical as some with the suggestion police management saw this as no bad excuse to have people tremble in fear a little bit, therby avoiding the 20% cuts - I've heard that but don't agree with it. But nor do I believe they couldn't act for fear of media/public backlash

[Otta]

James84 if you read my earlier post, I was basically making the same point as you.

Lostcat, are you going to post that anywhere else?

[lostcat]

like where?

[mockney piers]

the nunhead forum could probably do with the attention

[DaveR]

Liberal vs reactionary is kind of tired, and misses the point IMHO. Similarly, just focussing on the police will not solve any underlying problems, short term or long term. Whilst there is no excuse at all for 99.9% of what has been happening across the UK in recent days, it is pointless pretending that there are not some lessons to be learned about the context.

The last 50 odd years in the UK has seen a massive change whereby authority that was previously vested in institutions is now vested in rules/rights. Back in the 50s a whole range of institutions - parents, schools, communities, churches, the police, courts and, various organs of the State exercised authority directly, and broadly in line with a consensus that bridged the majority of social classes. Although there were obviously legal rules and rights in the background the day-to-day authority exercised by, for example, teachers and police officers, was rarely scrutinised by reference to those rules/rights - their word was law, in the most literal sense.

That has clearly changed, and much of that change has been for the good. Unfortunately, as with all changes there are unintended and unanticipated consequences. In the most basic way, we are all now far more free to challenge authority, and as a consequence some will feel empowered to challenge authority by reference to their own understanding of their 'rights', regardless of how skewed and perverse that is.

Now, this all sounds like a load of theoretical sociological tripe, but actually the evidence is pretty clear. Speak to any teacher and they will tell you that even young children are very aware of their 'rights', and that any expectation that their authority will be backed up by parents is sadly misplaced. Sadly, perhaps, some teachers question whether they should be seen as authority figures at all. The picture is very different in catholic and (I am told) Islamic schools where there is still largely a consensus between schools and parents, bound up with the continuing acceptance of the authority of the religious institutions in the background.

In those circumstances the police are genuinely caught between a rock and a hard place. The modern police are far more aware and respectful of individual rights than they ever were in the past, but they also know that this makes it harder for them to do their jobs effectively.

One explanation that has been posited for the widespread riots in the mid 80s is that the police were out of step with other institutions - they were still trying to assert authority simply by reference to the uniform, and sometimes with scant regard for the strict legal rules, but they were dealing with young people born in the 60s and 70s who had other ideas. Their teachers had been at college in the 60s and 70s, and many had been (in a very understated, British way) radicalised. Kids, especially those from Caribbean backgrounds, rejected the attitudes of their parents and elders who had largely remained deferential to the classic British authority figures (and as a result had suffered endemic discrimination).

In the 80s the mass rejection of authority expressed itself almost exclusively through violence. In the consumer driven 21st century, even urban rage is ultimately just another shopping opportunity.

[titch juicy]

the police 'stance' over the last few nights, might have something to with the fact that the IPCC are investigating them for the shooting of a certain Mark Duggan- remember him?

...and as for some of the posts in this thread!

[danmaitland]

there are summer courses for the kids. i was teaching on one last week at the albany deptford. The kids were the excat demographic taht are rioting, and were lovely - respectful and hardworking and keen... Yoo know why and how they were there - mostly? parents who gave a f+++.

[kford]

@lostcat: I wonder how the current crop of middle class east dulwich offspring will turn out.

I suspect they'll be at uni, working and paying for your pension. If the biggest issue in your ED life is that the pavements are occasionally blocked by a 'designer buggie' or that a child makes a noise in cafe, then you should count yourself lucky.