benmorg Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 thecaptain Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> Ok benmorg, I'll give them a bunch of flowers> instead and we'll see how that works whilst> they're smashing the place up and thieving...Or you could just pick a fight on an internet forum, if you're unable to keep your cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edresi10 Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Drafting is pretty extreme, but one years conscription for all 17 year olds like they do in other countries such as Finland could be an option.There was a program a few years ago called bad lads army that I thought was really good. Maybe something like that can be set up on a national scalea) for kids under 16 who fail to attend schoolb) Kids aged between 13 and 18 who break the lawc) Kids between 16 and 18 who potentially have left school but want to learn a trade or skill, and who otherwise dont have the opportunity to do so for one reason or another Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Barber Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Hi charliebrown,http://www.metpolicecareers.co.uk/specials/Index.htmlClearly states 16hours pcm and also states "Special constables also receive free travel on the London Underground, London Buses, Tramlink, Transport for London (TfL) operated Overground services and the Docklands Light Railway (DLR) is extended to all MSC officers both on and off duty."Last night London was spared serious problems because 16,000 police officers on duty - both regulars and specials from Metropolitan Police Force and other Police forces. more specials would really help the Met cope with such disturbances. As a councillor I'm barred - also I can't have another non work role to add to being a councillor - but I would encourage others. The last time I spoke to local police they were hoping new local specials would wish to police East Dulwich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmck83 Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 charliebrown Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> james Barber - specials sign up for 25 hours and> do not get all the travelling perks of the full> time police officers.They do, my cousin is one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecaptain Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 benmorg, I haven't lost my temper, I'm just exasperated by your response - Londoners lives have been forever changed by this with business's and people's livelyhoods destroyed forever, yet you still have this 'I'm alright jack' mentality, my suggestion of fighting fire with fire is not for myself, but, for these self same people....This of course, is your opinion and I respect that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benmorg Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 thecaptain Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> benmorg, I haven't lost my temper, I'm just> exasperated by your response - Londoners lives> have been forever changed by this with business's> and people's livelyhoods destroyed forever, yet> you still have this 'I'm alright jack' mentality,> my suggestion of fighting fire with fire is not> for myself, but, for these self same people....> > This of course, is your opinion and I respect> that.What did I say that suggested the "I'm alright Jack" mentality?Fighting fire with fire.... In what way is a gang of angry vigilantes with baseball bats, intent on teaching hoodies a lesson, different from a gang of angry hoodies intent on teaching the police a lesson?Another problem with resorting to vigilantism is that they'll soon be infiltrated by people with a far-right agenda, who aren't representative of ED residents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benmorg Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 I know Birmingham isn't ED, but the situation that's developing from the attack on vigilantes is relevant. They now have a growing feud between Asians and Afro Caribbeans. I'm sure the English Defence League will be rubbing their hands with glee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sebadoh Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 colville09 Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> I think we have two forms of defence. The first is> to all get out and stand in LL when trouble is> threatened. Three or four hundred people will show> thirty little brats that they cannot expand their> territory, dominate and disrespect us. The second> defence is to use the digital realm and fight> back. Lets take a million images of each of the> little sods and identity them and make fun of themWell said. > online. These forms of defence sound weak but> could be very powerful. These prats have a> romantic notion they are dangerous street> fighters, years of mugging people and posing with> guns have lead to them thinking they can get away> with it. The reality of the sad little f**ks, if> you got them by themselves is that they would wet> themselves. They have power by being in a feral> group, lets find out who they are and dishonour> them, make fun of them. Like most bullies they> can't take being named or shown in a bad light. It> is beyond belief that we should be frightened of> them. Taking the piss out of them is the only way.> Lets organise and get everyone out. If nothing> else, we can have a good party. Remember if you> see a few kids trying to look hard, take their> photo, they will scatter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mockney piers Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Have Londoners' lives been changed forever?To be honest apart from witnessing a surfeit of hot air it hasn't actually impacted my life in any real way at all, at least until I get my revised home insurance I guess ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mister_eels Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 "Taking the piss out of them is the only way."http://photoshoplooter.tumblr.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecaptain Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 All three of your questions are easily answered:1) Just your general responses,very passive a sort of 'oh well nevermind' view on all this...somehow you have faith in police, which must of been somekind of hilarious quip which i havent found time to congratulate you about.2) The word 'vigilante' is an Americanism, which is distinctly inaccurate to this situation. I'm talking about protecting communities....Mockney - I'm not talking about you, I'm referring to Londoners as a whole....you are probably a middle england chap anyway.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mockney piers Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 A Madrile?o, middle Spain! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damian H Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 colville09 Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> I think we have two forms of defence. The first is> to all get out and stand in LL when trouble is> threatened. Three or four hundred people will show> thirty little brats that they cannot expand their> territory, dominate and disrespect us. The second> defence is to use the digital realm and fight> back. Lets take a million images of each of the> little sods and identity them and make fun of them> online. These forms of defence sound weak but> could be very powerful. These prats have a> romantic notion they are dangerous street> fighters, years of mugging people and posing with> guns have lead to them thinking they can get away> with it. The reality of the sad little f**ks, if> you got them by themselves is that they would wet> themselves. They have power by being in a feral> group, lets find out who they are and dishonour> them, make fun of them. Like most bullies they> can't take being named or shown in a bad light. It> is beyond belief that we should be frightened of> them. Taking the piss out of them is the only way.> Lets organise and get everyone out. If nothing> else, we can have a good party. Remember if you> see a few kids trying to look hard, take their> photo, they will scatter.I completely agree with the OP and with colville. All the stuff about a fear of vigilante rule etc is so absurd and exactly the sort of thing that the gangs and hoodies would be chuckling into their scarfs about if they read it.Of course, the ideal situation is one where the police are responsible for policing the streets, but when they arent around then we need to do tbis ourselves. The alternative is for everyone to scurry around frightened whilst a bunch little thugs break windows and loot stuff. I agree that a co-ordinated presence of locals willing to stand shloulder to shoulder and deter those who come to ED intent on mischief is a superb idea. If things kick off again PM me and I will be along.There is absolutely no reason for this to disintegrate into mafia type action or illegality. Everyone is entitled to act in self defence and these thugs organise and operate on the assumption that they will meet no resistance of any type.Someone referred to Belfast, as if that is a catastrophic paradigm. Having lived most of my life there I can tell you that this type of neighbourhood watch was often used very effectively in vulnerable or threatened communities when rotas would be organised for groups of locals to keep an eye out at the edge of the community for any strangers or trouble makers making their way in.I see no reason why a watch could not be set up on a rota basis and any suspicious characters coming in simply politely challenged and asked what they are coming here for. Simply knowing they are being watched may be a deterrent itself.Many readers may not know that a similar system already operates linking many of the local traders through an alarm system in their shops. Any trader can hit the alarm if there is trouble in their shop and other traders in the system commit to rushing to their help if the alarm is tripped. I have been one of the cavalry turning up to help on a couple of occasions - all thankfully false alarms. All this would involve is that concept being expanded to a community basis.The bottom line behind all the concerns and fears expressed is that people are scared and intimidated and that paves the way for troublemakers to screw up our community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmck83 Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 mister_eels Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> "Taking the piss out of them is the only way."> > http://photoshoplooter.tumblr.com/Hehe!http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/riots-caused-by-society-or-lazy%2c-thieving-pricks%2c-say-experts-201108094174/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecaptain Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Someone who agrees with me, I've just fallen off my chair!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damian H Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 By way of example, a few years ago I was in a coffee shop in Mile End in the early evening with a friend. It was near the Queen Mary's campus and a young woman was sitting near the window reading a book, completely engrossed and apparently feeling secure in a well lit coffee shop. I noticed a group of about four or five young black lads come in and start to crowd around her. SHe hardly noticed at first until one of them started to stroke her back and was effectively touching her up in broad daylight. It was all done very quietly and I am sure that had things continued they would have opened her bag and stolen her things, had a further grope and then left.Several other people noticed but pretended not to and looked away. I was not prepared to stand by and got up, walked over to them, told the barrista behind the counter in a loud voice to call the police and told the lads round the girl to leave her alone and get out of the place immediately. I was pretty nervous and was under no illusions that things might turn nasty and a knife could be pulled or the like. My eyes were on the stool I was going to pick up to clobber the first one who came near me. It wasn't necessary as they got the message and left, leaving behind a very up[set and shaken young woman who only just started to become aware of what had happened.A couple of local Indian traders came in and locked the door (the shop staff were hopeless) and they rang around various contacts to see if they could track down the lads responsible. From the calls I overheard one of their pals had collared one of them and was holding him.To cut a long story short, the girl was comforted and escorted home. Had it not been for one person standing up and meaning business (me) a young woman would have been robbed and sexually assaulted in a busy coffee shop. Once one person acted other people showed willing to join in. Psychological studies around the Bystander Effect and Deffusion of Responsibility show that if one person leads firmly others will act, but there needs to be a lead shown.As for the police....they were called. My friend and I waited forty five minutes to make statements. The police never showed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 I don't see the OP making any mention of baseball bats, zero tolerance, aggression, racial confrontation etc...Standing as a diverse community to deter vandalism, does not have to be some kind of loutish, aggressive, vigilante action. This is where we live, these are our shops. To stand meekly by, and allow ourselves to be intimidated by gangs of unruly children is just absurd. These kids believe they can operate with impunity, they expect to meet zero resistance. The situation is perverse - and for the most part we are all culpable. Not wanting to get involved, not wanting to draw attention or become a victim... it's disgusting, and I consider myself as guilty as most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benmorg Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Marcus Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> I don't see the OP making any mention of baseball> bats, zero tolerance, aggression, racial> confrontation etc...The OP suggests doing what N London's Turkish community did - they used baseball bats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niki_nje Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Damian H, it is a shame the police didn't show, I hear this kind of thing about the police a lot. The one time I had dealings with the police they were superb.I used to live by Ruskin park and my housemate was attacked when she was cycling home. About 12 kids surrounded her, tried to grab her bag and one punched her in the face but she cycled through and got home. I told her to call the police when she got back, my boyfriend told us not to bother as "they won't do anything anyway". I insisted however, saying that those kids could attack someone else and after ringing (the local number rather than 999!) they turned up about 2 minutes after the phone call (much to our surprise). They went back to the area just in time to catch these kids mugging someone else, taking his wallet, and saved the poor chap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 benmorg Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> Marcus Wrote:> --------------------------------------------------> -----> > I don't see the OP making any mention of> baseball> > bats, zero tolerance, aggression, racial> > confrontation etc...> > The OP suggests doing what N London's Turkish> community did - they used baseball bats.I doubt that in the cold light of day, they deeply regret not allowing their shops, and the means by which they earn money to feed their families, to be looted and vandalised. Had you owned a shop in the area, it would have been destroyed and your life torn apart (as would mine), but at least we would be secure in the knowledge that we had made the right decision... Standing in the street with a baseball bat defending Foxtons against an armed, frenzied mob, is not an option that I find particularly attractive. Determined, community presence as a robust deterrent does not have to take the form of an aggressive lynch mob. Better left to the police. But if there are no Police then what? Just hope that it happens to someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benmorg Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Marcus Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> benmorg Wrote:> --------------------------------------------------> -----> > Marcus Wrote:> >> --------------------------------------------------> > > -----> > > I don't see the OP making any mention of> > baseball> > > bats, zero tolerance, aggression, racial> > > confrontation etc...> > > > The OP suggests doing what N London's Turkish> > community did - they used baseball bats.> > I doubt that in the cold light of day, they deeply> regret not allowing their shops, and the means by> which they earn money to feed their families, to> be looted and vandalised. > > Had you owned a shop in the area, it would have> been destroyed and your life torn apart (as would> mine), but at least we would be secure in the> knowledge that we had made the right decision... > > Standing in the street with a baseball bat> defending Foxtons against an armed, frenzied mob,> is not an option that I find particularly> attractive. Determined, community presence as a> robust deterrent does not have to take the form of> an aggressive lynch mob. Better left to the> police. But if there are no Police then what? Just> hope that it happens to someone else.We were failed by the police on Monday, for various reasons. I believe that has now been put right. I don't think vigilante gangs are necessary, and as we're already seeing on the news, they can very easily make things worse. It's important not to let rage, hatred and vengeful emotions get in the way of level-headed thinking. At the moment, there are far too many emotions flying round, even on this forum, and people are thinking with their guts rather than their brains. Let's hope for a few more days of calm, less of the knee-jerk anger, and a better equipped and prepared police force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaardvark Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Re the below:Wow!niki_nje Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> Damian H, it is a shame the police didn't show, I> hear this kind of thing about the police a lot.> The one time I had dealings with the police they> were superb.> > I used to live by Ruskin park and my housemate was> attacked when she was cycling home. About 12 kids> surrounded her, tried to grab her bag and one> punched her in the face but she cycled through and> got home. I told her to call the police when she> got back, my boyfriend told us not to bother as> "they won't do anything anyway". I insisted> however, saying that those kids could attack> someone else and after ringing (the local number> rather than 999!) they turned up about 2 minutes> after the phone call (much to our surprise). They> went back to the area just in time to catch these> kids mugging someone else, taking his wallet, and> saved the poor chap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 > We were failed by the police on Monday, for> various reasons. I believe that has now been put> right. I don't think vigilante gangs are> necessary, and as we're already seeing on the> news, they can very easily make things worse. > > It's important not to let rage, hatred and> vengeful emotions get in the way of level-headed> thinking. At the moment, there are far too many> emotions flying round, even on this forum, and> people are thinking with their guts rather than> their brains. Let's hope for a few more days of> calm, less of the knee-jerk anger, and a better> equipped and prepared police force."Determined, community presence as a robust deterrent does not have to take the form of an aggressive lynch mob."In which part of my post do you see "...rage, hatred and vengeful emotions"? I'm not feeling any of these. Did you read my post or will you just brand anyone advocating some kind of community action as a violent extremist, hell bent on bloody retribution? I think the whole situation is rather tragic - for the victims and also for the young, mindless, rioters and their depressing lives.I hope you don't one day find yourself the victim of a crime - as people file past you, pretending not to notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bellerophon Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 cmck83 Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> charliebrown Wrote:> --------------------------------------------------> -----> > james Barber - specials sign up for 25 hours> and> > do not get all the travelling perks of the full> > time police officers.> > > They do, my cousin is one.Nope, they get Underground, buses & DLRIf he / she is briefing it on Overground trains then it's an an abuse of office - cue DPS and arrestWhat was the name / warrant no. again ?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Apparently baseball bats are OK.http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/10/metropolitan-police-rioters-reasonable-forceAbsolutely splendid news because I'm starting to feel rage and hatred, both knees are jerking, and I'm well up for a big old dollop of vengeance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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