Trouble in peckham?

[ratty]

Just been told that Lewisham shops are closing at 1pm today as a precaution. Stable door or sopecific intelligence??

[Peckhamnearbe]

And let us add, zero tolerance of 'high' level crime i.e. that committed by those who are continuing to 'loot' public money e.g. using taxpayers' bail out money to award themselves huge bonuses and gold-plate their pensions whilst saying that public sector is too profligate. The elite seem to think that everyone should accept their largesse is a divine right.

[Magpie]

That's just the propaganda you read in the socialist worker

[KalamityKel]

And is completely besides the point and does not give these hooligans any justification for their actions!

[Jeremy]

Magpie Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Couple of points to touch on here - water cannons,

> rubber bullets etc are not authorised for use on

> mainland Britain

Not sure about water cannons. Baton rounds are used regularly by UK police, and would be entirely appropriate in a situation where a large mob is charging at police and throwing bricks/bottles.

[Moflo]

I've heard it's all kicked off again in lewisham, Peckham and camberwell? Can anyone confirm?

[Magpie]

On the rich - how about revitalising the victorian culture of philanthropy - where are the Horniman's of today? ;-)

[Rook]

Values, respect and discipline seem to be the key problem here. Irrespective of the "haves" and have nots", arent all these things free ?

What responsibility do the parents of these children have ?

[DinkyToy]

First off, it is NOT entirely unreasonable to call in the Army. Unless things have changed since my days, they are trained in crowd control, and can be used as first defense working aloneside and under the command of the Police. Pure numbers of men themselves can have a calming effect.

Training for deployment to places like Iraq and Afghanistan nowadays includes crowd control elements, and training for deployment to NI contains loads.

@Twinkaloo - yep. I'll be alongside you.

[Santerme]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Magpie Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Couple of points to touch on here - water

> cannons,

> > rubber bullets etc are not authorised for use

> on

> > mainland Britain

>

> Not sure about water cannons. Baton rounds are

> used regularly by UK police, and would be entirely

> appropriate in a situation where a large mob is

> charging at police and throwing bricks/bottles.

Correct, baton rounds are available to the police in England, since 2001/2, I believe, and have been used operationally.

[ibilly99]

From the Guardian - a French point of view

"Globalisation engenders an excess of individualism and nowhere more so than in Anglo-Saxon countries," wrote Jean-Marc Creau on the site. Joelle Koenig added: "Since the Reagan and Thatcher years, deregulation has grown faster. They reduced taxes for billionaires ... and now they want to work the people of Tottenham and elsewhere to death to pay off the debt."

Jean Baptiste Clamence wrote: "There exists in England an underclass that does not exist anywhere else in Europe. White, little educated, without any means of social evolution, they are a perfect example of the results of Anglo-Saxon capitalism and its dehumanising program. The English perversion is to make this population proud of their misery and their ignorance. The situation is hopeless. I've more hope for the youth of our banlieues."

[KalamityKel]

Penge is supposedly looking quite active at the mo :-S

[Santerme]

DinkyToy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> First off, it is NOT entirely unreasonable to call

> in the Army. Unless things have changed since my

> days, they are trained in crowd control, and can

> be used as first defense working aloneside and

> under the command of the Police. Pure numbers of

> men themselves can have a calming effect.

>

> Training for deployment to places like Iraq and

> Afghanistan nowadays includes crowd control

> elements, and training for deployment to NI

> contains loads.

>

> @Twinkaloo - yep. I'll be alongside you.

I left in 2006 and yes training in riot control is still practised.

However, soldiers on the streets is not the answer.

[Sherwick]

God, The Guardian is spouting artcile after article of utter rubbish. These 'poor unfortunates' have had ?millions if not ?billions shoved at them over the decades.

[DinkyToy]

Armed soldiers - no.

Soldiers with helmet, visor, sheild and baton - yes.

[Brendan]

Sherwick Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> God, The Guardian is spouting artcile after

> article of utter rubbish. These 'poor

> unfortunates' have had ?millions if not ?billions

> shoved at them over the decades.

Fuck me I was just transported back to South Africa in the 80s for a moment there.

[Magpie]

"There exists in England an underclass that does not exist anywhere else in Europe. White, little educated, without any means of social evolution, they are a perfect example of the results of Anglo-Saxon capitalism and its dehumanising program. The English perversion is to make this population proud of their misery and their ignorance. The situation is hopeless. I've more hope for the youth of our banlieues."

has this bloke not been watching the TV?

[BB100]

Magpie, I see you didn't add Duggans' parents to your list. Turning up at a police station with a very large group of people was the core reason why this kicked off. Why didn't they just go alone? If it was my son I would be ashamed that he was even on a police wanted list.

[Loz]

Josiehendrick Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Huguenot you are a Tory I presume? if you really

> think having Playstations and Blackberrys means

> people aren't poor you are quite frankly deluded.

> Britain is one of the most socially unequal

> societies and like countries like the US,

> experiences peasants revolts.

Sorry Josie, but you are trying to redefine the word 'poor'. Inequality is not the same as poverty and being poor.

Why do social commentators do that? Did they all sit down and decide that 'inequality' was not a strong enough concept and so they felt they had to hijack the word 'poverty'. Sudan has poverty. India has poverty.

[Sherwick]

Here's the real reason: Lib Dem MP Stephen Williams blogs about the reasons for the violence: "Everyone wants to be rich and famous, without wanting to work hard to reach those otherwise acceptable ambitions. So I think the prime motivators behind the looting are greed and jealousy, rather than sorrow and anger. Basic human failings that have been around forever. Not contemporary political gripes but certainly contemporary social malaise."

[Santerme]

DinkyToy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Armed soldiers - no.

>

> Soldiers with helmet, visor, sheild and baton -

> yes.

Well, personally I hope this is never allowed to happen

[mockney piers]

Short term

Magpie

>> 1) Immediate and robust police prescence to stamp out the rioting

Absolutely

>> 2) Zero tolerance of low level crime (by all)

I like the sound of that, its one of those things that always plays well to the gallery, the corollary of course being what do you do with them. Our prisons are already full, we can't afford lots more of them, and the culture responsible for the looting actually deems time inside as a badge of honour, so that ship has sailed.

>> 3) Investment in schools/training/etc with a focus on discipline, and it sounds glibs but also extra-curricular activities - sport and music keep teenagers focused.

Why glib? I quite agree, but there's years of effort to be done to erode a culture that belittles education and believes there are no prospects anyway. This is spot on, but its for the long haul and must be a genuine policy of real investment, not papering over the cracks or appearing to be fulfil a manifesto promise whilst spending the least amount possible to do so.

>> 4) Benefit overhaul - need to break benefit dependency culture

And we've heard this time after time for 30 years too and I'm still not sure what it's supposed to mean. In practice it means tinkering with the system at little gain but often high cost, doing nothing to decrease dependence but making damn sure there is little dignity left in anyone stick in the situation.

I suspect what you mean is wholesale benefit removal, this will certainly break dependence. Hell it may just break the gordian knot, but I doubt it. Noones found an answer to this, I'd be interested to hear if you have suggestions rather than repeating an electoral soundbite.

BUt hell, at least you're suggesting things Magpie, better than sherwick's knee-jerk tedium.

[BrandNewGuy]

ibilly99 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> From the Guardian - a French point of view

>

> "Globalisation engenders an excess of

> individualism and nowhere more so than in

> Anglo-Saxon countries," wrote Jean-Marc Creau on

> the site. Joelle Koenig added: "Since the Reagan

> and Thatcher years, deregulation has grown faster.

> They reduced taxes for billionaires ... and now

> they want to work the people of Tottenham and

> elsewhere to death to pay off the debt."

>

> Jean Baptiste Clamence wrote: "There exists in

> England an underclass that does not exist anywhere

> else in Europe. White, little educated, without

> any means of social evolution, they are a perfect

> example of the results of Anglo-Saxon capitalism

> and its dehumanising program. The English

> perversion is to make this population proud of

> their misery and their ignorance. The situation is

> hopeless. I've more hope for the youth of our

> banlieues."

Errm, clearly doesn't know what's been happening in France's ghettoes recently, then - riots aplenty. Ah yes, I see - he's only interested in the whites. How quaintly French...

[BB100]

'Here's the real reason: Lib Dem MP Stephen Williams blogs about the reasons for the violence: "Everyone wants to be rich and famous, without wanting to work hard to reach those otherwise acceptable ambitions'

so it's the X factor's fault then. haha. Simon will be pleased.

[BrandNewGuy]

Magpie Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> On the rich - how about revitalising the victorian

> culture of philanthropy - where are the Horniman's

> of today? ;-)

Philanthropy happened in a world of very low taxation. Yes, I know the rich avoid much of their tax these days, but 150 years ago only a small minority of the population paid tax, and then only at a rate of less than 10%.