Trouble in peckham?

[Santerme]

It's obvious we need to send in an elite team of social workers.

[mockney piers]

Jeremy, you can click on what I thought were teepees (apparently they are fires) for a description, someone got attacked and more roving youths as far as i could tell.

I don't think anyone connecting this with the cuts is suggesting there's a political motive.

I think the implication is that 30 odd years of neglecting those at the margins of society and particularly demonising our chlidren, I think feral is the preferred term, that we have created an disenfranchised underclass, those services were barely even a sticking plaster, but that the savage cuts have removed even that.

Throw in wider unrest, economic doom on our screens every night for three years now, double dip recession, US downgrade, wars, famines and things look a little odd.

Now throw in tensions and a localised riot and this lot have thought 'hell we can do that because it looks like we can, fuck you yeahhhh fun', this is just the blindingly obvious, if tragically depressing upshot of how our society is predicated.

It isn't the fault the coalition (im with Brendan, I think labour have much more responsibility for this), they may well have been the straw that broke the camels back though.

Those denying any political aspect (with a small p) or saying 'not the cuts, they are necessary' are utterly blinkered if you ask me.

[Rose21]

http://catchalooter.tumblr.com

this was sent to me by a friend, not sure if any of the photos are from Peckham/ED but thought I would post it anyway.

[Josiehendrick]

Huguenot you are a Tory I presume? if you really think having Playstations and Blackberrys means people aren't poor you are quite frankly deluded. Britain is one of the most socially unequal societies and like countries like the US, experiences peasants revolts. Look at Scandinavia, see any riots there? No. You know why? Because they have a lesser divide between rich and poor.

Perhaps you should remove your head from the Daily Mail and wake up and smell the problems. Our society needs to fundamentally change. After all, its the rich who have to clean up the mess. And as has been proven, a more equal society benefits all (including the well off, not just the poor).

[RosieH]

Pretty much what Mockers said. The personal is political, and the fact that these kids seem to think they stand to lose nothing is an indictment of the state we find ourselves in.

No excuses, no justification - just saying this is society's problem.

[southside73]

check out Malmo Josie - riots a plenty

[Twinkaloo]

Would it be insane to suggest that groups of responsible, community-minded residents took to the streets tonight to show a different face to this situation? I was in Londis last night when it got rushed and they were just kids, grabbing armful of sweets, trying it on - perhaps if there was more of a presence of local people 'policing' the neighbourhood then it might not happen again? Or is that just naive tomfoolery?

[KidKruger]

Josiehendrick

"..to ignore the deeper issues will only lead to more severe problems down the line.."

No-one is IGNORING The 'deeper issues' are they - they're commenting on looting activities rooted in base greed ?

There are 2x sets of 'deeper issues' that I see:

1. Riots yesterday, deeper issues are general disrespect for society and greed from young kids who know they cannot be touched for what they do. THAT is an issue.

2. deprivation in society etc etc, very deep issue. But nothing to do with the riots.

So, talking about deprivation etc has bugger all to do with the riots as one is NOT The reason for the other. The EXCUSE maybe, but not the reason.

So cheap to politicise by using names like 'Tory'. Very easy way and low effort way to exist, just like the looters.

I guess it's not surprising that the symapthisers have same capacity to detach themselves from any responsibility, ...it's all the Govts fault.

FYI, looting in Stockholm will get you 10 years.

[PN33]

We saw Tesco Metro being looted last night. The people in there weren't just 'teenage youths' as the media seem to be alluding to, there were middle aged women in there too. Everybody's behaviour was extremely brazen, there was a guy walking out totally casually stuffing his face with something he'd clearly just pinched.

My concern is for this evening. Not necessarily East Dulwich, they don't seem like they're on the hunt for over-priced baby-clothes or hand made birthday cards. But I was in Camberwell for a few hours last night and was sure the trouble would come down from Peckham in that direction, especially given the fact that the police had successfully created a blockade in the New Cross direction. But it never happened, I wonder if it will tonight. If 'Social Networking' is making this kind of info so publicly available, has anyone seen Twitter feeds relating to the next targets? I need to know as I need to go to Camberwell this evening as well and don't want to get caught up in it all!

[david_carnell]

Huguenot you are a Tory I presume? if you really think having Playstations and Blackberrys means people aren't poor you are quite frankly deluded. Britain is one of the most socially unequal societies and like countries like the US, experiences peasants revolts. Look at Scandinavia, see any riots there? No. You know why? Because they have a lesser divide between rich and poor.

Perhaps you should remove your head from the Daily Mail and wake up and smell the problems. Our society needs to fundamentally change. After all, its the rich who have to clean up the mess. And as has been proven, a more equal society benefits all (including the well off, not just the poor).

I'm not sure Scandanavia is the best example of social harmony right now.

And whilst I'm in agreement that lesser wealth inequality is a great panacea it is not the be all and end all. There is a far wider range of cause and effect circumstances in play. Some of which Piers has alluded to.

[Josiehendrick]

You really think the deeper 'issue' is greed?

Let's be clear, I'm not condoning the way these people are behaving. But we're not seeing white Etonians from Hampstead looting are we? Do you really think it's as simple as people being greedy and taking what they can't afford to buy.

And what do you base your statement that deprivation in society has nothing to do with these riots? How do you know this?

As for the Tory comment, it just seems from the vast amount of social media comments and articles floating around that Tories take a very different line when it comes to the issue of inequality and social deprivation in general.

It's not as simple as saying it's the government's fault - inequality was an issue under Labour too. It's not even about fault, it's about trying to move forward from this to a better society for everyone. Punish the looters, convict the wrongdoers but don't be so naive as to say this is all about greed.

[Annette Curtain]

It's also group mentality fuelled by the idea of "they won't catch me"

I mean what have these kids got to loose, nothing. ( well nothing they seem to value anyway )

What do they aspire to ? Material possession, cant get, then take it attitude.

It's opportunistic mugging on a Grand-Theft auto scale. And the seeds were planted by the last government, kids with the "you can't touch me attitude" in schools and on the streets.

It does though need a hard crack down. It's blatant criminality.

Our civil society hasn't exactly set a good example. From some points of view it looks like everyone is at it, Politicians on the fiddle, Huge corporations hacking phones, banking looks rotten to the core and coppers on the take at the highest level. Countries on the verge of economic collapse.

Sure there are due processes of Law & cases being built, but it stinks really from bottom to top.

Really, are we suprised. Yes of course we are because we expect people to start with discipline at home no matter where they fit in society. However, if you've got young children in school you might notice a small but significant group of parents who are themselves stuck in a perpetual adolescence. Kids parenting kids as it were, with a ?uck off attitude to match.

I see it regularly, parents not giving kids boundaries, because they haven't any themselves. But I do see a chink of light in the local youth group leaders round here where I live. When we've had issues with bad behaviour i've called them up and each time they've taken the time to listened and taken action & it's stopped. This I believe is the key, communities need to be just that. Did any one listen to Bernie Grants daughter on BBC Radio 4 yesterday.

Lastly, the Prime minister should have been back here two days ago. Swanning it up abroad when others who work their arses off can't, shows some kind of contempt.

NETTE(6)

[edresi10]

These kids are the dregs of society, they care about nothing. They dont care about their families, their community, their friends, who they hurt or what the do. They simply have no regard for the value of human life which is why they have been running around the streets of London stabbing and shooting each other for far to long. This has nothing to do with teh current political mess, this is something that has been brewing for years and has coem to the forefront because of sheep like mentality, they have seen others getting away with it and so they think it is their god given right to do it and get away with it.

[Jeremy]

Josiehendrick Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Do you really think it's as simple as people being greedy

A large propoprtion of it - yes, I do.

Yes, it's not Etonians from Hampstead. But again, that doesn't make this politically motivated. Delinquent youths/gangs do usually (not always) come from poorer backgrounds - does that make every mugging or stabbing a political statement?

[DJKillaQueen]

I think there's a lot of truth in that edresi. One of the first hurdles youth workers face when dealing with those kinds of young people is in getting the to hsve any kind of respect for others not like themselves. It's not easy.

[Undisputedtruth]

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/camila-batmanghelidjh-caring-costs-ndash-but-so-do-riots-2333991.html

No one knows more about youths than Camila Batmanghelidjh. She has worked closely with them for a number of years. And if we're to learn the lessons from the recent riots then it certainly worth hearing what she has to say.

[Huguenot]

Josiehendrick, you're confusing inequality, which is a social and intellectual construct, with poverty, which is a lack of material or transactional worth.

I don't deny there is inequality, but these people are in no sense 'poor' except by comparison with what is a very small national minority.

In fact, by comparison with most of the world these people are inestimably wealthy. In not having to work, and probably not even perform household chores such as dealing with their own sewerage, they will probably be outside the imagination of most of the world's population.

These people will have a complete expectation to be treated, for free, in hospitals created and staffed by the society they resent and set out to destroy.

What they see as 'inequality' is an apparent challenge to their acquisition of a BMW, when their expectation is to be given everything for nothing.

They see no challenge with looting shops, because they've probably never worked hard for anything in their life.

They probably simply don't understand why anyone else would be aggravated with them for doing this. It's just a laugh, of no import.

[ibilly99]

Brilliantly put Nette (lights cigar in segregated pub garden at your insight and erudition.)

[KidKruger]

Basically the lads robbing people's mobile phones on Forest Hill Rd is the same thing, they are likely to get away with it, they line their pockets, they have no sense of respect for the people around them and the consequences for the victim (lost contacts and perosnal information) or how the person they are attacking may feel.

They want something and they go and get it, they have a pocket full of phones, they don't NEED to do it, they know they're likely to get away with it, they won't get hurt - they know you're unlikely to fight back.

Zero sense of working to achieve something, want everything, for free.

[Higster]

All those involved with starting fires, whether directly or indirectly should be charged with Attempted Murder. There are laws which enable members of a 'gang' to be charged with the same crime committed by other members, even if they do not take part directly.

If this is actioned and the message publicised it could have a positive impact on these yobs and discourage some of them to stay home tonight.

[KalamityKel]

Not wishing to scare monger but it would be advisable to plan alternative routes home this evening in the event your normal route home will be effected.

Bus drivers are being advised to go code red should they see any "gangs" or wotever you wish to call such people. So travel may be effected without notice.

(tu)

[KidKruger]

Higster:

"All those involved with starting fires, whether directly or indirectly should be charged with Attempted Murder."

I agree.

I hope [police consider such charges, however identifying the fire starter himself will be nigh impossible.

The police DID I believe charge the occupants of a car which ran over 2 coppers last night on Fulton Rd with 'attempted murder', according to their website.

Met charge suspected loooters with attempted murder

[david_carnell]

Two more interesting articles:

Katherine Birbalsingh - London riots: In Brixton last night, hooded, smiling boys hung around ? waiting for something to kick off

Nic Darlington - We know nothing except we are all to blame for this

[edresi10]

KidKruger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Basically the lads robbing people's mobile phones

> on Forest Hill Rd is the same thing, they are

> likely to get away with it, they line their

> pockets, they have no sense of respect for the

> people around them and the consequences for the

> victim

Well said, and it is these kids who are running a mock now- met officers have been saying that the guys they are fighting are the guys they pick up every day, they know them all.

[Magpie]

Couple of points to touch on here - water cannons, rubber bullets etc are not authorised for use on mainland Britain - hence there are literally none on the mainland. There is a very different legal situation in NI for obvious reasons. However, it would clearly make sense to bring over some riot police from NI who will have valid experience in the matter. The Army would be a disaster the average squaddie is not going to sit back and do nothing while under attack - people would get killed.

As to who is to blame - in my mind there is a huge list of candidates.

Perhaps we should blame the police, who were slow to respond on Saturday both to Duggan's family, and to the subsequent riots - if they had cracked down hard then, perhaps the spread would have been contained. However, the police have come under heavy criticism for brutality during recent student and G7/G20 riots - you can understand their reticence, especially where there was a racial element involved, as there was initially on Saturday.

How about complaints over their attitude to young black/ethnic males in London - the constant stop and search? Well one can argue that there is a link between low level street crime and poorer areas, and also a disproportionate number of poor black/ethnic people in these areas - so some of this "harrassment" is justified.

How about Governments for neglecting these areas? well billions have been poured into inner city areas in the last 30 years - what has been the result? nothing much other than benefit dependency. What about the last government letting in 3 million immigrants in 10 years to compete for services/low-skilled employment, and weakening social cohesion? What about the current government with their cuts? what about the global economic situation and the bankers etc.

How about us, the general public, who are too scared to confront low level crime/anti-social behaviour on trains, public spaces etc when was the last time you told a teenager off for littering? These children grow up without boundries, without discipline, as a result of weak family structurs, weak society, and weak schooling.

However, all of this, in my mind is an excuse. Each individiual has to take personal responsibility for their own actions.

So what should be done??? Well how about:

Short term

1) Immediate and robust police prescence to stamp out the rioting

Medium term

2) Zero tolerance of low level crime (by all)

3) Investment in schools/training/etc with a focus on discipline, and it sounds glibs but also extra-curricular activities - sport and music keep teenagers focused.

4) Benefit overhaul - need to break benefit dependency culture

All of which is a bit obvious - so any other suggestions?