Annoyed - scammers and "youths"

[stringvest]

I was on business in Holborn, by the tube. I was approached THREE times by beggars, pretending to be "all alone in country to go to job" and wanting 5 pounds for their oyster card. I knew they were scamming and offered to take one to the shop to put money on the card, but NO! they just wanted the money "just two pounds would be ok". I told 1st one to go away, 2nd one to go away, was avoided by 3rd one who had seen second one ... then flipping first one comes back and was very persistent, pleading in a shrill voice with praying hands. They all went off when I said I would call the police. They all have blue back packs so can see each other and are NOT alone.

youths: I was on different business somewhere else! Tried to get along pavement but couldn't for gang of youths, bikes chucked on pavement outside the chicken shop. I asked several times to get past, but they were too busy laughing and shouting. I walked back further and crossed over, so that I could pass them without being in the road. THEN I SAW WHAT THEY WERE DOING. Chucking chips and chicken in the road to a flock of pigeons and ROARING with laughter as they were maimed and killed. Traffic was trying to avoid the flock etc. People at the bus stop were distressed and exclaiming, but NOT DOING ANYTHING. After the fourth was squashed and one flailing in the kerb, I stepped in. I picked up the pigeon with its neck broken and innards hanging out and headed for the youths. DO YOU WANT THIS FOR YOUR MUM? DO YOU WANT THIS WITH YOUR CHIPS? LOOK WHAT YOU DID. "EUUUUGHHH They were all screeching, you'll get rabies you nasty bit**" "eff off" ... YOU ARE THE NASTY ONES, WICKED AND CRUEL I said. They got mouthy and wouldn't leave so I called the police. I also despatched the pigeon flapping in the kerb and put them in the bin. Police have better things to do, but if kids aged 10-15 think this cruelty is REALLY FUNNY and acceptable, what is next for them KITTENS, PUPPIES .....???

I think PIGEONS are protected under the Wildlife and countryside act and can only be killed by licensed pest control etc. Regards.

[Jules-and-Boo]

Good lord. Scammers are one thing but what these kids were doing is disgusting and I can't believe people would just watch. I'd probably have stopped the traffic while calling the police.

You did well

[Elphinstone's Army]

It's probably a good thing you don't live in rural France - they just shoot rooftop pigeons and put them in the pot, and other unspeakable things the French do/eat would have you fainting.

Of course they were cruel, but why would you pick up a pigeon and confront them in this way, you are not going to change anything, walk away and myob, pigeons are vermin, there is no reason to believe these daft lads will torture puppies and kittens, you are over reacting.

Persistent beggars are part of life, do you not venture near the Coop on LL? or anywhere in town, they are everywhere not always obvious, and not confined to London. There again you overinvolved, offering to take the beggar to 'put money on his card' - you concerned yourself and other people's actions disappointed you.

[KidKruger]

I think it?s totally uncool to purposely intend to try and hurt or kill an animal, especially when it?s just for a laugh, with your mates, in public.

Whether it?s vermin, a pet, livestock is immaterial. Causing intended suffering for kicks is not OK.

Seeing people actually do this is bound to shock and who can seriously say how they would really react ?

[civilservant]

thanks for 'overinvolving' yourself, stringvest, and not just walking away.

these kids were egging each other on to be cruel idiots and not taking responsibility for their actions.

you were quite justified in making the poor darlings face up to the consequences of their behaviour.

[JohnL]

Beggars now get "Everything goes on the debit card" I don't carry cash (I usually add that most Londoners are stopping carrying cash)

and the youths - well this guy was cautioned and had to dispose of the gun - so I reckon the parents of the kids should be cautioned.

http://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2018-04-16/man-cautioned-after-birds-illegally-shot-in-scarborough/

[Elphinstone's Army]

stringvest Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I was on business in Holborn, by the tube. I was

> approached THREE times by beggars, pretending to

> be "all alone in country to go to job" and wanting

> 5 pounds for their oyster card. I knew they were

> scamming and offered to take one to the shop to

> put money on the card, but NO! they just wanted

> the money "just two pounds would be ok". I told

> 1st one to go away, 2nd one to go away, was

> avoided by 3rd one who had seen second one ...

> then flipping first one comes back and was very

> persistent, pleading in a shrill voice with

> praying hands. They all went off when I said I

> would call the police. They all have blue back

> packs so can see each other and are NOT alone.

>

> youths: I was on different business somewhere

> else! Tried to get along pavement but couldn't for

> gang of youths, bikes chucked on pavement outside

> the chicken shop. I asked several times to get

> past, but they were too busy laughing and

> shouting. I walked back further and crossed over,

> so that I could pass them without being in the

> road. THEN I SAW WHAT THEY WERE DOING. Chucking

> chips and chicken in the road to a flock of

> pigeons and ROARING with laughter as they were

> maimed and killed. Traffic was trying to avoid the

> flock etc. People at the bus stop were distressed

> and exclaiming, but NOT DOING ANYTHING. After the

> fourth was squashed and one flailing in the kerb,

> I stepped in. I picked up the pigeon with its neck

> broken and innards hanging out and headed for the

> youths. DO YOU WANT THIS FOR YOUR MUM? DO YOU WANT

> THIS WITH YOUR CHIPS? LOOK WHAT YOU DID.

> "EUUUUGHHH They were all screeching, you'll get

> rabies you nasty bit**" "eff off" ... YOU ARE THE

> NASTY ONES, WICKED AND CRUEL I said. They got

> mouthy and wouldn't leave so I called the police.

> I also despatched the pigeon flapping in the kerb

> and put them in the bin. Police have better things

> to do, but if kids aged 10-15 think this cruelty

> is REALLY FUNNY and acceptable, what is next for

> them KITTENS, PUPPIES .....???

>

> I think PIGEONS are protected under the Wildlife

> and countryside act and can only be killed by

> licensed pest control etc. Regards.

If this is how you are with pigeons in the road, what are you going to be like living in the country, with sounds of slaughter through the night, are you going to be running outside with a lantern and a stern expression?

particularly when the hunt passes your door, dogs in a box on an open truck, beagles not always used unless it's a drag hunt, and oops, a fox, well dogs will be dogs ...buzzards and other birds of prey flapping past your window with baby bunnies wriggling, fixed in their claws, red kites swooping into your garden to attack, maim, carry away kittens, cats, small pet rodents, rats, mice and voles, pigeons and/or starlings in your loft, or crows as we had, sound like buffalo at 5 in the morning, making nests, then abandoning them and smelly dead birds unreachable, or the ganging up on injured, small, wounded birds by others, pecking them till they are bloody and dead, a bedraggled fox attempting to leap your fence with hounds pulling him back down and tearing him

apart, crazy rabbits in the road with myxomatosis which we are assured by DEFRA does not exist any more, badgers hunted late at night, flickering lights and shouts, neighbours with Jack Russell terriers do not keep them because they are cute, roadkill, including cats, lambs with their eyes pecked out, Crows and foxes wait until the lambs are actually being born, to make their kill (did you know this), wayward dogs shot, legally by the farmer, dragged to and dumped at the side of the road, weaned/weaning calves calling their mothers who are bellowing in distress for them,

never to see, lick or feed them again, milk needed for humans, bullocks for the abattoir, heifers to repeat the process, the lorry pulling out of the local farm, crammed with bewildered sheep, cattle, goats, where do you think they are going - on their holidays? the monotonous, dreary call sound of wood pigeons, will remind you nevertheless of how you head on tackled moronic youths to teach them a lesson they will never forget, because your distaste and dismay and involvement will go down a storm in the country, and don't forget that horses do not use a neat litter tray.

Livestock attracts flies, blue and green bottles, blowflies big as a baby's fist, fruit attracts wasps aplenty, horseflies and mosquitos/midges abound.

As your sensibilities are so heightened, you are soft hearted and further distressed yourself by attempting to call out callow youths who were having fun seeing helpless fluttering pigeons vermin or not, in death throes, it's probably better if you hurry away, and ignore beggars for the same reason and seriously consider how life in the country is no idyll believe me, for someone of your sensitivity, protect yourself better, as you will not become immune, neither will you be able to affect changes.

[civilservant]

hi, Elphinstone's Army, life in the countryside IS red in tooth and claw and life in town can be as well

I understand that you're not condoning any of the practices that you describe

but stringvest posted about some completely gratuitous cruelty, and I am sure you agree that there was absolutely no reason for these kids to do what they were doing, and especially not for fun

you might feel powerless to stop awful things happening around you, but that doesn't mean that everyone should 'myob' - that's the start of a very slippery slope, and who knows where it ends?

[hpsaucey]

Ignore Elphonstone?s army.

Well done for challenging their cruel behaviour!

Dangerous too,

HP

[Jules-and-Boo]

there's a very big difference between the natural pecking order of life, with animals hunting and people killing animals for fun.

but you know that, which is probably why you're baiting us all with your inappropriate arguments - inappropriate as they have no bearing to the topic in point.

it's a fact that people who maim and abuse animals go on to abusing people - not all, but some.

there is no argument at all in saying people should just go about their business and turn a blind eye when they have witnessed cruelty. in fact, it's irresponsible and that behaviour in itself should be condemned.

[Quia Differt]

Stringvest:

youths: I was on different business somewhere else! Tried to get along pavement but couldn't for gang of youths, bikes chucked on pavement outside the chicken shop. I asked several times to get past, but they were too busy laughing and shouting. I walked back further and crossed over, so that I could pass them without being in the road. THEN I SAW WHAT THEY WERE DOING. Chucking chips and chicken in the road to a flock of pigeons and ROARING with laughter as they were maimed and killed. Traffic was trying to avoid the flock etc. People at the bus stop were distressed and exclaiming, but NOT DOING ANYTHING. After the fourth was squashed and one flailing in the kerb, I stepped in. I picked up the pigeon with its neck broken and innards hanging out and headed for the youths. DO YOU WANT THIS FOR YOUR MUM? DO YOU WANT THIS WITH YOUR CHIPS? LOOK WHAT YOU DID. "EUUUUGHHH They were all screeching, you'll get rabies you nasty bit**" "eff off" ... YOU ARE THE NASTY ONES, WICKED AND CRUEL I said. They got mouthy and wouldn't leave so I called the police. I also despatched the pigeon flapping in the kerb and put them in the bin. Police have better things to do, but if kids aged 10-15 think this cruelty is REALLY FUNNY and acceptable, what is next for them KITTENS, PUPPIES .....???

Really Well Done. A reliable friend of mine saw some youths in Lewisham around 2 years ago throwing stones at a small dog who was roaming the streets, presumably lost and dis-orientated.

Same mentality.

It is hard to know how one would react instinctively in some situations. I was minding my business in Downham Way, Grove Park last year when a few youths suddenly had a pitched battle right near our bus stop which nearly turned ugly. Ironically and co-incidentally the Police whizzed by and this caused an adjournment as ( Don't Laugh ) the rival assailants formed a sudden temporary alliance and pushed themselves into a nearby garden to avoid detection.

Then they started to chase each other again !

>

[Elphinstone's Army]

stringvest is moving to the countryside

I am not suggesting for one moment that I am ok with lads killing pigeons

Why would anyone exhort the OP to ignore me when

I am the only respondent taking a long term view

most people see pigeons as vermin and ok to kill

these are unpalatable facts of life and you are rsponding as soft townies

I fear for her and anyone who saw/heard Spike MILLIGAN?s daughter describing how, when they were children in the family car ready to be off on holiday, a bird flew into the windscreen and broke its neck

[Blah Blah]

Hey Elphinstone. I actuslly did grow up in the country and my parents and one of my brothers still live there running the family farm. I think you know nothing about it. There are humane ways to kill animals and birds and there are sociopathic ways as demonstrated by these boys, who were not for one moment concerned about the size of the pidgeon population.

[JoeLeg]

I think it?s dangerous to assume that the countryside is some kind of idyll where everyone is content and balanced.

This is only my own personal opinion, but I believe it comes down to what problems a person feels they can deal with on a daily basis. Outside of major metropolitan areas there are issues that we don?t have to worry about, and vice versa. I can understand someone deciding they?ve had enough of city life and heading for the sticks. But don?t go assuming there are no troubles to be found out there.

?Foolish? youth is to be found everywhere.

[Jules-and-Boo]

Foolish 'oldies' are probably worse as one would hope they have grown out of it by now.

Foolish youth need to be given direction, shown a better way of being, be set an example, guided, nurtured, helped, shown error of their ways.

[JohnL]

What are foolish oldies. I think some people may see me as that as I 'm single, no children and sometimes irresponsible (compared to my friends with families).

[Earl Aelfheah]

Well done Stringvest for stepping in with those kids.

[stringvest]

Thanks for ALL your replies. No! I am not about to buy a cape and call myself the crimson avenger or whatever. Sometimes I can't help but involve myself and I am sure others do too.

A few weeks ago a smelly drunk tried to cross the road, he fell straight backwards and his head crunched on the kerb stone. PEOPLE WERE DRIVING AROUND HIM and walking by? I bore the smell, got him by the armpits dragged him to the side of the road (he'd peed himself too!). His name was Sam and he had a very nasty lump and gash on the back of his head. I called an ambulance and waited with him in the kerb, so something didn't come round the corner and run him over. I chatted to him and said help was on its way. The ambulance that attended was one of those 1 man estate cars, so I had to help the paramedic get Sam up on his feet and attended to. To some he was a waste of space tramp I suppose, to me he was someones son, brother ....

A lady was broken down with a small child in the back of her car, I helped a man push her car into the kerb (he steered it...) whilst she held her child, and asked if I could phone anyone for her? She was very grateful.

Some youths set fire to some old bike sheds under a block of flats a couple of years ago, there was black smoke billowing and people had come out to look. There was an old and infirm lady coughing at the window above the flames licking up the balcony. I went up and banged on her door and got her to come out and wait with her neighbours while the fire brigade attended. They seemed like the right things to do at the time?

AS FOR THE COUNTRYSIDE: I do thank you for your advice and brutal honesty. Yes, things are not all rosey. Most of my country acquaintances are in agriculture (potatoes, veg), not livestock, they say they haven't the stomach for it. One friends dad had a pig farm. She can despatch a rat in an instant! Diary farming particular is hard and can be very brutal. In my London garden, there are often feathers from where the local Peregrine has picked off a blackbird or pigeon that I have fattened up for him! Being interested in animals and nature, I have researched a lot of things from fox-hunting, lab practices, EU agricultural policy (yawn), horse racing & foal farms (brutal too), dog racing etc, vet nursing, its nice to be able to have a bit knowledge about domestic pets and wildlife etc., forewarned is forearmed or whatever ....

When/if I do get the country I will bear in mind what you said. I will have some stresses, it's a long old life, they will be different stresses and a change is as good as a rest. But if someone decides its a good idea to drag granny off on holiday by tying her in a wheelchair to the back of the car, I might have to intervene .... Thank you again.

[Quia Differt]

JoeLeg Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I think it?s dangerous to assume that the

> countryside is some kind of idyll where everyone

> is content and balanced.

>

> This is only my own personal opinion, but I

> believe it comes down to what problems a person

> feels they can deal with on a daily basis. Outside

> of major metropolitan areas there are issues that

> we don?t have to worry about, and vice versa. I

> can understand someone deciding they?ve had enough

> of city life and heading for the sticks. But don?t

> go assuming there are no troubles to be found out

> there.

>

> ?Foolish? youth is to be found everywhere.

Believe me Joe Leg I thought long and hard whether to reply to your comments but I, simply, had to.

I was born and bred within 5 miles of ED and though I have been away from the heart of South-East London for 35 years I miss the vibe, terribly at times though I live in a really pleasant and safe area.

It's just I can't let " bland" comments go, I'm afraid. It's like me and my family committing 999 crimes and your Family just one crime and me saying " Well it's NOT just us that commits crime ! ".

In my hypothetical situation I may have spoken a truism but it hardly tells the story.

I have just returned from another West Sussex weekend and in my recent visits I have spoken to 95% of people pasing me sunbathing while they walk their dogs. Been to a house selling Summer Flowers left in his garden and you simply help yourself to however many boxes you want and leave the money in an envelope and push it through his letterbox if he is out.

I also saw a Girl no more than 5 totally on her own riding her bike on the old Bluebell Line without a Parent in sight and, seemingly, without a care in the world. I have found nothing but friendliness in my numerous visits there though there IS "some" crime but so litle it is hardly worth mentioning.

" Foolish" youth ARE everywhere but, proportionately the larger cities have far more of their share in my lielong experience of living in Inner and Outer London.

[JoeLeg]

I?m really not sure how you?ve interpreted my comments, but let me clarify them for you.

The point I was making - which the OP gets and I think you didn?t - is that there is often the perception that the countryside is free of all the problems that we face in inner cities, particularly with young people.

This is not the case. Of course as you point out, the crime rate is proportionally lower because the population density is much lower, but it?s not like the world is crime free outside the cities.

If you have a good life where you are then that?s fantastic. However, not everyone who leaves the city on search of the quiet life gets what they?re looking for; the presence of fields and trees and farms does not inhibit drugs, jealousy and crime.

A quick google has thrown up several cases of crime which would not be unusual in Peckham, which I could link to, and you could then link even more cases that actually did occur in Peckham, and we could go round and round. I don?t think either of us want to do that, and I think you?d probably agree with me that crime exists everywhere, as does idiotic behaviour by young people. To repeat the point you made, of course it happens more in cities because there?s more people, but there?s also more of everything else in cities, like jobs, shops, museums, emergency services and schools.

We all make our choices about where we want to live based on our own personal needs, which is why I said it comes down to what problems someone is willing to face each day. I?d love to live in a quiet village somewhere, chatting every day to my neighbours and walking in the fields, but I have two small kids so I need to work and in my profession the jobs are in the cities. Also, the primary schools here are really good, so we accept that troubles that inner city living brings in exchange for what it gets us as a family. That?s our choice, and other people choose differently, which is fine.

I don?t object to those who move out of London (or Manchester or Norwich or wherever), but whenever anyone talks about how the same problems don?t happen outside those things places I tend to sound a note of caution, because I think they?re setting themselves up for a fall. I?ve seen rampant drug issues in a small Cornish town, gang troubles in Staffordshire, and the results of gay bashing in Yorkshire. My point is that there?s humans everywhere, and where you get humans you get some level of trouble, in some form or other. Small towm living brings its own challenges, which not everyone is comfortable with; you don?t have to go too far past zone 6 to encounter some fairly outdated attitudes, as both my black wife and gay friends will attest to(though fortunately such things are slowly declining), cities tend to be more inclusive.

Your life sounds pretty idyllic, and I?m very glad for you. But not everyone gets so lucky, and often it?s down to unreasonable expectations of how life will be in the countryside.

[Quia Differt]

JoeLeg Wrote:..........

Smalltowm living brings its own challenges, which not

> everyone is comfortable with; you don?t have to go

> too far past zone 6 to encounter some fairly

> outdated attitudes, as both my black wife and gay

> friends will attest to(though fortunately such

> things are slowly declining), cities tend to be

> more inclusive.

>

> Your life sounds pretty idyllic, and I?m very glad

> for you. But not everyone gets so lucky, and often

> it?s down to unreasonable expectations of how life

> will be in the countryside.

Clearly many salient points JL.

I have been lucky in that I had 29 great years near The Elephant and Castle living over a busy market and have had 35 more tranquil years living just half-a-mile from the S.E.9 Postal District.

I have lived with 4 different Black Ladies over the last 30 years and socialised with innumerable others and, rarely, encountered a problem here though Joe :)

I have to be honest though that if I think of, say,the 20 most "dodgy" situations I have been in ( outside attending Football matches all over the Country ) then they have, virtually, all been in South East London over those 35 years since I left but frequently returned.

For Example around 4 months ago I parked o/s Morleys,Queens Road,Peckham at 11pm and, deliberately, took the end bay so as not to get blocked in, as is my custom. Suddenly 5 mins later 3 Guys arrived in a car and parked on Double Yellow Lines 1 foot in front of mine, effectively, blocking me in and just started chatting.

I am now stuck and was never going to get out as they knew very well what they had done so I just had to hope that the car behind me lef , which it did after 10 minutes. THat could have been a long night...

[Elphinstone's Army]

civilservant Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> hi, Elphinstone's Army, life in the countryside IS

> red in tooth and claw and life in town can be as

> well

>

> I understand that you're not condoning any of the

> practices that you describe

>

> but stringvest posted about some completely

> gratuitous cruelty, and I am sure you agree that

> there was absolutely no reason for these kids to

> do what they were doing, and especially not for

> fun

>

> you might feel powerless to stop awful things

> happening around you, but that doesn't mean that

> everyone should 'myob' - that's the start of a

> very slippery slope, and who knows where it ends?

hello thank you for your response : no it isn't part of a slippery slope at all (for the OP) it is a form of protectionism - why should he be the only respondent to such mindless practice - answer - because he is the only one who cares - answer

however - as I stated - he is not going to change anything, the banality of their activity, their 'mindset' their brutal satisfaction - the only way to deal with this unpleasant scenario is to remove oneself from it.

[Elphinstone's Army]

hpsaucey Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Ignore Elphonstone?s army.

>

> Well done for challenging their cruel behaviour!

> Dangerous too,

>

> HP

do not ever PM me again ever and call me a HO, : no one puts Elphin in a corner - ergo - my opinion, the value of which is crucial to my wellbeing, is of as much value as anyone else's, and you should whole heartedly, publicly, apologise

[Elphinstone's Army]

Jules-and-Boo Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> there's a very big difference between the natural

> pecking order of life, with animals hunting and

> people killing animals for fun.

>

> but you know that, which is probably why you're

> baiting us all with your inappropriate arguments -

> inappropriate as they have no bearing to the topic

> in point.

if this is aimed at me say so, rather than be obscure, if it is I am not going to respond until your argument achieves clarity

>

> it's a fact that people who maim and abuse animals

> go on to abusing people - not all, but some.

>

> there is no argument at all in saying people

> should just go about their business and turn a

> blind eye when they have witnessed cruelty. in

> fact, it's irresponsible and that behaviour in

> itself should be condemned.

[Elphinstone's Army]

Elphinstone's Army Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Jules-and-Boo Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > there's a very big difference between the

> natural

> > pecking order of life, with animals hunting and

> > people killing animals for fun.

> >

> > but you know that, which is probably why you're

> > baiting us all with your inappropriate arguments

> -

> > inappropriate as they have no bearing to the

> topic

> > in point.

> if this is aimed at me say so, rather than be

> obscure, if it is I am not going to respond until

> your argument achieves clarity

> >

> > it's a fact that people who maim and abuse

> animals

> > go on to abusing people - not all, but some.

> >

> > there is no argument at all in saying people

> > should just go about their business and turn a

> > blind eye when they have witnessed cruelty. in

> > fact, it's irresponsible and that behaviour in

> > itself should be condemned.

in your opinion

i have never said that stringvest should not have intervened, I have never questioned the morality of his action - what I have suggested is that his interference would have no impact on the sensibilities or thrill seeking motives of the youths, indulging in a Logans Run for pigeons, perceived as stupid, greedy and disposable vermin. My ability to assess and inhabit their peculiar mental mindset does not preclude my own distaste for such activities, and if you are looking to pin the tail on the donkey, you have selected the wrong candidate here.

stringvest has stated his case also, thanked, acknowledged, mused, and it is about time that all would be warriors followed his good example.