"A" Boards blocking the pavements

[PSJ]

Does anyone know what the laws or guidelines are regarding "A" boards outside shops on public pavements in East Dulwich?

[dbboy]

Don't ask the Councillors, they'll have Wardens swooping like Sea Gulls. or was that Eric Cantona!!!!

[Sally Eva]

Eh voila

https://www.southwark.gov.uk/transport-and-roads/roadworks-and-highway-improvements/obstructions-on-roads-and-pavements

[nxjen]

Bear in mind though that often the part of the footpath closest to the shop is part of the shop's land.

[PSJ]

Thank you!

Sally Eva Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Eh voila

>

> https://www.southwark.gov.uk/transport-and-roads/r

> oadworks-and-highway-improvements/obstructions-on-

> roads-and-pavements

[Thai-vedic massage]

Presumably if the Sandwich board isn't blocking the pavement then you don't have a problem with it?

Those of us that use them are just trying to make a living :-)

[ruffers]

If they're not blocking the pavement inappropriately then I'm sure we're all fine.

[monica]

A boards are permitted on the private part of the land pertaining to the shop. You will find the A boards in East Dulwich are located appropriately without blocking peoples pathways.

[ianr]

monica Wrote:

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> A boards are permitted on the private part of the land pertaining to the shop.

> You will find the A boards in East Dulwich are located

> appropriately without blocking peoples pathways.

No I _don't_ find that to be so. With the qualification that "obstructing" rather than "blocking" seems to me a possibly better descriptor.

On whose behalf do you speak, and with what authority, if it's for anyone else?

What do you actually mean by "pertaining to"?

Do you use a A-board yourself?

[Penguin68]

Many of the shops in ED (and LL) have a stretch of pavement leading from their frontage forming part of 'their' land, i.e. it belongs to them and they can put what they want on it - it doesn't count as part of the public pavement, and therefore things placed on the land cannot be said to be blocking public movement. In some instances that stretch of land which isn't public is clearly delineated - in other cases it isn't but that doesn't mean that it is thus public and offers the public an unrestricted right of way.

This 'private' element of what appears to be 'the pavement' is what had caused issues about pavement repair - the council is not responsible for the upkeep of that part of the pavement which is privately owned. Where A boards are on the private element of the paved frontage it can (legally) block as much as it wants to. It is only blocking its own land and not somewhere with a public right of way.

[cella]

The pavements in ED are way too narrow already with the changes and increases to the demographic. Cyclists, runners, parked cars all use pavements freely and shops, cafes etc encroach further on the already limited space for actual pedestrians. People standing chatting and blocking the space, sometimes with massive buggies, doesn't help and the unnecessary street furniture is really annoying too. Pavements are for pedestrians I feel.

[BigED]

Yes, pavements are for pedestrians, But the space at the front of the shops generally belongs to the shop. So if they want to stick up a sandwich board then that is their right. So long as they don't encroach on the public thoroughfare.

[nxjen]

I don't think anyone would expect the public to have a right of way through people's front gardens. This is the equivalent of expectations here.

[SoozieW]

If really in the way, you could always just ask the shopowner to tuck it in a bit or move it yourself.

[BigED]

So long as the board is on the shop's space and not on the public pavement, I think it is up to us pedestrians to walk round it. As nxjen says, otherwise it is a bit like wandering through someone's front garden and asking them to move their stuff because you want to carry on walking uninterrupted.

As for people cycling on the pavement, don't get me started...

[stoo31]

Great insight in to people's thoughts about accessibility here. You know those people who have restricted movement, wheelchair users, older people who need walking aids. But nothing like treating profit over people is there?!

I think the point being raised is firstly what is the law and then clearly based on that if its obstructing the pavement then it should be moved.

I don't think anyone is saying shops shouldn't be allowed to advertise or use A boards.

Monica I'd like to know how you monitor all the A Boards in SE22, presumably you go out to each retailer every morning in SE22 with your tape measure and a copy of their deeds?!

[monica]

stoo31, We the local retailers chat with each other, we have a real community of retailers, who like to discuss local issues with each other. When Southwark council threatened to fine us for "blocking the main thoroughfare" about 4 years ago, we did our own research, looked at the boundaries on our deeds, which confirmed the private land in front of the shops belonged to the retail outlets.

Hopefully that has satisfied your curiosity. :)

[cella]

There was a thread on here a while back which challenged that assumption and, from memory, Southwark were trying to get shopkeepers to scale back their encroachment.

[maxxi]

There is a problem when businesses use the whole of the area belonging to the business as an outdoor seating area (various bars & cafes) and STILL put an A board outside this area. That's taking the piss a little.

[nxjen]

cella Wrote:

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> There was a thread on here a while back which

> challenged that assumption and, from memory,

> Southwark were trying to get shopkeepers to scale

> back their encroachment.

Monica and the other retailers have demonstrated that this is not an "assumption" but a legal fact. In most cases the shopkeepers are not "encroaching" but placing A boards/chairs and tables/goods for sale within their own legal space. Whether or not you agree the space should be used in this way, the retailers are perfectly within their rights (subject to individual plans lodged with the Land Registry) to use the space in this way. Which is why Southwark Council has not proceeded in "fining" those businesses who display goods etc just outside their shops.

[cella]

Not sure that's entirely right. The pavements are for people walking with everyone else on the actual road and it's not clear how life is to be improved for pedestrians with other users and shopkeepers asserting their rights.

[monica]

Cella, we are well within our rights to encroach on the area belonging to the business, not public highways.

Not sure what you think you know, however its probably a good idea, if you undertake your research a little more thoroughly, before you make assumptions.

[cella]

I think the point being made is that pedestrians need space on the pavements to walk freely and safely. Anything that impedes this needs to be looked at carefully.

[Pugwash]

Whilst I have no problems with boards etc on businesses own 'land' it is sometimes difficult to tell which is 'public pavement' and which is 'business' . Some shops you can see this clearly as the composition of the pavement is different. I vaguely remember something on the forum last year which states that permission has to be sought from the council as to the number of chairs and tables permitted outside establishments and that a charge is made by the council per table/chair. Cam anyone else remember this or is it a figment of my imagination? Especially at weekends when more people are about, I think businesses need to rethink where their boards are placed. Having pushed a wheelchair in LL at weekend, avoiding boards, broken pavements, tree stumps etc as well has people with prams stopping to chat mid pavement, can be a nightmare. You must also think of those who are visually impaired and boards may constitute a trip[ hazard.

[monica]

Hi Pugwash

Exactly, common sense at last, There is a visual difference between public highways pavement and private land, that is why we ensure our land is tiled and our A board is on our land. Realistically it is very difficult to negotiate Buggies, wheelchairs and shopping bags down lordship lane, when the pavements are 6 deep with people. However business rates are very high in East Dulwich especially Lordship lane, so you can imagine we the retailers want to optimise every bit of our privately owned land.