Amy Winehouse passes away.

[mockney piers]

I don't.

Prohibition made alcohol a criminal drug. During this period it was still freely available if you knew where to look, the quality was uncontrolled, the government lost billions in revenue, people made vast sums from the smuggling and supply of the drug and criminal activity ballooned with ensuing violence of turf wars for control of areas of sale. Masses of police time was wasted, investing huge resources in futile attempts at stopping production, importation and sale of the drug.

I would have thought the only issue with the comparison is that it's so blindingly obvious not that it's ridiculous.

[mockney piers]

Remeber it too was banned for moral reasons and because it causes harm to society.

It's worth remembering too that there are about 500 hospitalisations due to alcohol overdoses every week and 150ish deaths a year, compared to heroins 800ish. This doesn't include the tens of thousands that die due to long term use every year.

[Otta]

Piers, if heroin was as available as alcohol, do you think those figures would stay the same?

Thought not.

[Otta]

Oh, and I'm not against it being controlled, as that would get the dealers off the street, which was the only thing I was suggesting.

I'm sorry though, I'll go along with comparisons between alcohol and any other recreational drug, but heroin is fucking evil, and not many people come back from it. Plus, lots of people use alcohol socially at the weekend, or do a line of coke, or smoke a joint on a Saturday night. People on heroin don't just do it at the weekend to have a better night!

[DJKillaQueen]

Millions more people are using alcohol, so as a percentage, those that fall foul of it are significantly less than those who use heroin and get into trouble. Heroin is a far more dangerous substance, whichever way you look at it. There is no scope for moderation with heroin in the way there is with alcohol.

Where I do agree with MP is that the current approach isn't working. Policing is having so little impact that's it's barely noticeable. But I'm not convinced that legalisation via prescription would change anything. There are already healthy black markets in counterfeit (and otherwise) prescription drugs. I don't think legalisation will eradicate an illegal trade in drugs at all.

There are problems with prescribing anything as an attempt to control something that addicts find very hard to resist. We see that with methodone (which I think is widely accepted at being a more problematic substance than Herion). What happens when the doctor isn't prescribing enough doses....? Or the addict wants a hit at 3 am in the morning. Nor would prescribing as much Herion as an addict wants help anything either.....that would just be irresponsibly feeding a death wish.

Having said all that....I am short of ideas on solutions that might work.

[mockney piers]

thanks for putting words in my mouth there otta, I'm not entirely made of straw you know.

I'm to understand from your comment that I'm proposing making heroin as available as alcohol then am i?

I'm not, but then if people needed to register to receive safe and pure heroin for their addiction, I'd be mightily surprised if suddenly millions of people would think that a great idea and the streets of Leeds and Croydon would be knee deep in people taking heroin of a friday and saturday night.

Of course another way of looking at these figures is that given the 25000 overdoses annually, 150 deaths is pretty low, we could understand that given the criminal nature of heroin that you are far more likely to OD in a situation where help won't be fortchcoming and perhaps less inclined to seek hospitalisation; perhaps decriminalisation might actually help reduce deaths from heroin.

- edited following more thoughtful follow up post -

[mockney piers]

"There is no scope for moderation with heroin.."

It might surprise you to know that just as there are plenty of functional alcholics that there are also functional heroin addicts and recreational users that are perfectly capable of keeping it under control.

Just as alcohol problems more often stem from poverty and other social issues (abuse etc) so it is with drug problems, whlst those who use it recreationally can afford better products and fit it in with responsible lives.

I agree it's evil stuff, but nothing is quite as black and white as all that. I think the starting point of any sensible discussion on drugs has to consider the given that control of supply has utterly failed, any denial of that position must then be posturing.

[helena handbasket]

The big difference between them is that it's harder to spot the alcoholic than a heroine addict. Alcoholics take longer to notice. They don't have to hide their dosing because they can do it next to you at the pub, while you're having the same thing. They don't have to steal to get it because accessibility makes it cheap; cheaper than milk if you're not fussy. And in the UK it's on every single corner, so you can pick up your "hit" while you get bread and eggs. You don't think there are as many severe alcoholics because you can't see them. They blend in. And often you don't even know it with the person you live with until it's become critical.

In my twenties I had a six year relationship with a lovely man who turned out to be a raging alcoholic. He died at 27 when his organs shut down, one by one, from the damage he'd done to his body. The last two years were no different than AW's, they were just private. Very few people even knew it was going on.

Alcoholics don't usually die of overdose. They die in accidents. Or of suicides. Or of organ failure. That is why you can't compare numbers easily.

Heroine, on the other hand, is the only drug that mice in labs will work for and choose over food.

[Otta]

" I'm to understand from your comment that

I'm proposing making heroin as available

as alcohol then am i?'

Er, no. I was just saying that IF they were equally available, the figures you quoted would be completely different. DJ made exactly the same point, although perhaps she worded it better.

The tone of your last few posts felt quite condescending, and riled me to be honest.

Also, I don't really agree that there are plenty of recreational heroin users out there who have it totally under control. Where is this info from?

[mockney piers]

A friend of mine has recently discovered that his wife is quite severely alcoholic, she has spent two years hiding it very well, most effectively masking it as depression brought about as a result of his terminal cancer.

As if it's not bad enough that he won't get to see their daughter beyond her fourth year (or more accurately she won't get to see him I guess), he now has to worry about the state her mother is going to be. She's booked into rehab and is making progress but I dread to think what his death will do to her recovery.

Noone should ever trivialise the potentially destructive effects of alcoholism.

In fact have we even had it confirmed that the thread in question has come about as a result of a heroin OD or are we all making assumptions?

[Otta]

Assumptions, think the post mortem is this afternoon. I think suicide is just as likely.

Anyway, sorry to hear about your friend, but believe me, I do not need telling about the potential dangers of booze, and I would never trivialise it.

But many many many people just enjoy a drink, and I am far from convinced that the same could be said for heroin.

[helena handbasket]

Really the only thing they have in common is that they are both addictive and both ruin lives.

I think the reason you don't see recreational heroine users is because it's not meant to be a recreational drug. It's what you go to when your addicted brain needs more than it can get from the other stuff. I don't think many people go straight to heroine; they are usually already addicts who need something to take it up a notch.

[mockney piers]

I remeber reading an article a few years ago that interviewed recreational heroin users that was making the point that there are greyer areas than usually thought with heroin. I'm now hoping it wasn't by Johann Hari ;-)

[helena handbasket]

Blaming society is pointless though. An addict who won't accept treatment does so because they don't think they are as bad as the "real" addicts. I lost count of how many rehabs/treatment centres/ AA courses etc etc we arranged for my friend but he quit every time because he did not see himself as at all comparable to "those losers".

Addicts don't want support, they want enablers. So they surround themselves with parasites and other addicts.

[Heinz]

Otta,

I think the only thing you are addicted to is the sound of your haughty voice.

[Otta]

Heinz, what exactly is your problem? You keep directing posts at me, without actually making any points, or explaining what you disagree with.

I've never been called haughty before though. Cool.

[Jeremy]

mockney piers Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I would have thought the only issue with the

> comparison is that it's so blindingly obvious not

> that it's ridiculous.

You can have a debate about whether legalisation would improve the problem. But heroin is not the same as alcohol, Heinz's blunt analogy is a gross simplification. It is silly to suggest that a dealer is essentially doing the same job as an off license.

[Heinz]

Are you implying alcohol is not a drug?

[Jeremy]

No.

[helena handbasket]

Is it silly to suggest though?

When I first moved to ED, I took my son swimming at Peckham Pulse and finished around eleven in the morning. As we were walking out, a very drunk old man stumbled out of the pub that is in front of the library and fell over, then threw up.

Somebody served that man and there could not have been any ambiguity about his condition. How is that different from a drug dealer?

[Otta]

On the Foir Gras thread today, it was pointed out to me that it was unfair to compare the legal practice of producing and eating FG to dog fighting or badger baiting, because they are criminal.

By that token, one can't compare am alcohol outlet to a dealer.

That said, I am pretty sure there are rules about serving intoxicated people, and whoever served that man was very much in the wrong.

[Horsebox]

To echo what Mockney said about grey areas of use regarding heroin, I know personally and have met other people who have used or continue to use H on an irregular basis. They are not 'addicts' by any stretch of the imagination.

Certainly they would benefit from a controlled market with a purer product as there's still the risk of buying contaminated drugs.

Recreational / non-problematic use is larger than many people think. Not all H users are scrawny, malnourished addicts.

(typing on iPhone so may re-edit later on at home).

[helena handbasket]

All true. But if there wasn't a legal argument........?

I do know alcohol and heroin are not the same. But an addict is an addict, same principles apply regardless of what your choice of poison is. Why is there a hierarchy of addictions? Right, because one is acceptable.

[DJKillaQueen]

that there are also functional heroin addicts and recreational users that are perfectly capable of keeping it under control.

Yes they exist but most users of heroin are completely messed up by it. I'd even argue that most of the people I have known that regularly use any kinds of drugs recreationally are messed up too. Now it might be that heroin is an 'addicts' choice of drug...i.e. that most people just looking for a buzz would choose something else before heroin but I think to try and water down the impact and nature of heroin as something that can be kept under control is not a view that most doctors and drugs workers would take (not that I am saying that you are watering down it's impact).

Heroine, on the other hand, is the only drug that mice in labs will work for and choose over food.

I think that demonstrates perfectly the addictive nature of the drug. It has the power to make addicts of people rather than being used by those who are addictive. Heroin causes physiological addiction. Some will be strong enough to resist that, but most users aren't. A few pints of beer will never turn you into an alcoholic in themselves.

My father was an alcoholic and I thnk most people have experience of that more than they might know someone afflicted by heroin. But the fact still remains that the vast majority of people who drink alcohol do so sensibly.

[helena handbasket]

Is that an actual fact?