Norway.

[jim_the_chin]

Whilst utterly shocked by the act I did wonder if there was a positive amidst the tragedy and mayhem. I wonder if the murderous frustration that people like this show is a sign of how much they are marginalised in modern society. Perhaps this is the sort of thing old Adolf himself might have done had he lived now, instead of being allowed near actual power and causing 50 million deaths.

Just a thought.

[katie1997]

Frankito Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Ottie, no-one is making the comparison of both

> events other than you... I haven't heard anyone

> say that Amy is equal to 100 unknown Norweigan

> innocents...

Otta - in my opinion - is not the one serially missing the point, far from it. There is and has been no comparison of events. But levels of people's reactions and outpourings of grief? Yes.

[Frankito]

Perhaps, however my point was to draw a line under all the niggling and move on rather than continue to analyse it and thus continue to royally miss the point.

[Thomas Micklewright]

Back to the thread topic; anyone heard a reasoning as to why he attacked a youth labour campaign group?

[david_carnell]

He attacked values.

He seems to have attacked those he felt had betrayed his nation with their tolerance or belief in a multi-cultural Norway that allowed immigration of non-Christian populations.

Why he chose young people at a political camp rather than more high profile targets (i.e. further explosives near political offices) I cannot imagine - perhaps to make the strongest possible statement.

His confession in court will be his moment to explain/defend his actions. That in itself is unusual - rarely do such gunmen get captured alive.

It will also represent a massive challenge to Norway's liberal legal system that only permits a maximum 28 year sentence for any crime.

[Ridgley]

It is very sad what happen over there, my first thought was my relatives in Norway I have spoken to them recently and they are shocked at what has happen. The coalition needs to wake up and stop sticking there fingers in there ears who is to say that this sort of thing what happen in the future over here it just take some nuttier or organisation to snap.

[david_carnell]

What would you like to see the coalition "doing" to prevent such an attack here?

[Ridgley]

Exactly what they, are doing now for outside attacks the enemy can be within. I think the problem is that they do not take as seriously as they should.

[david_carnell]

I suspect the monitoring of extremist groups internally is conducted by MI5 (the Security Service) and so is not discussed for those reasons.

I have no reason to doubt that in the wake of the attacks in Norway, internal threats to British security by far-right organisations will be very carefully surveilled.

[StraferJack]

Agreed with DC there

But I would also add, nutterdom brings with it, by definition, that element of something you can?t plan for.

By and large, security measures imposed on us since Sep 11 have been reactive, not carefully considered plans. In the wake of those attacks we were told that sweeping reviews would take place ? but it was years later when it appeared as if some liquids might be used before the liquid ban came into force.

Nor were we asked to take off our shoes before the shoe-bomber

Are we any safer as a result? I think on balance not only are we not safer but we are worse off. If you are a terrorist now you just have to look through a list of things they check for and do something else. I over-simplify but you get the gist. Some nutter somewhere WILL think of a new way and some of us will be victims of that. And I would rather live with that possibility, than have every freedom stripped away Just In Case

A lot is being made about this Norwegian idiot posting his manifesto online 90 minutes beforehand or whatever it was ? as if people could somehow have prevented the whole tragedy if only they had acted on this. But have you seen how much lunacy gets posted on the internet every second? What would it take to flag something up as genuinely threatening as opposed to merely delusional? You can?t act on everything

So telling people to ?wake up? is all well and good but in practical terms what does it mean

[Otta]

The killer has made claims that he had meetings with British far right extremists some years ago, so it is already being investigated.

Plus there is a department of the police who specifically deal with domestic terror threats.

Edited because the stupid auto correct on my phone makes no sense!

[mockney piers]

Bleating about a liberal conspiracy - check

Ranting about systemic multicultural bias in publically funded broadcasting - check

Oh.......my.......god.......

[Otta]

Equally, if some nut job, acting alone, decides to go on a killing spree, there is not a lot that cam be done to prevent that I'm affair, and no government can be held responsible.

[Otta]

Posted those 2 without reading Strafer's post, otherwise I'd have just said

What Strafer said.

[Ridgley]

Well we just have to watch this space, I cannot help feeling somthing will kick off just a feeling though.

[StraferJack]

Plenty of dark news around to fuel that feeling of dread, it's true Ridgely. We may not be at the end of this period, but history shows us we have been up against worse before

[Cassius]

Even his lawyer admits that he looks at the world in a different way to normal. To guard against the actions of such a person would only be managed with severe constraints on personal freedoms. I don't think a 100% risk free society can ever be achieved.

[DJKillaQueen]

I think we can safely say the guy is insane. But insane people can appear normal until they snap. I don't think we can ever plan for the individual that goes off the rails like he did. He was off the radar, unknown to security services....and sadly, for all the plots and acts of violence that are thwarted, there are always going to be those that aren't.

[Frankito]

I am not sure this reactive stance that the media etc take when things like this happen.. How can you proactively manage/ create an infrastructure that deals effectively with so many dark variables.. I am not inferring that we shouldn't bother, more that looking to lay blame on Government agencies is wrong.

Nutters are nutters and the 'best' (or is that worst?) of them never reveal themselves..

[ianr]

> I think we can safely say the guy is insane.

I wouldn't, on the evidence available to date. Are you using it in a colloquial sense rather than as moderately synonymous with psychotic?

By the way, from the few photographs I've seen of him, a small sample and not all good quality, I've found myself thinking that his pupils seemed to be generally moderately dilated, even where light conditions seemed good. Am I misperceiving? It's a neutral, if maybe interesting, observation anyway, and not one from which I make any inference.

[KidKruger]

I haven't seen evidence that he's insane, strong beliefs and a desire to act on them clearly though.

I'm surprised that Norway allegedly has a maximum jail term of 21 years, meaning thus guy will be out in his mid-fifties if he gets the full term.

I'd suggest his crime warrants a rest of life sentence.

[mockney piers]

His lawyer has said he's insane and I believe he's receiving psychological testing.

This doesn't strike me as a psychotic person, more like a psychopathic one, ie one with a total lack of conscience or care about consequences, rather than a chap struggling with the normal reality for whatever reason.

I have to say that photo of him in the police car looking quiet and untroubled by what he's done does suggest to me a degree of psychopathy (not that I'm any expert of course) and it did damn well give me the chills.

Usually this sort of thing comes from a long festering anger boiling over and/or an acute psychotic episode and is usually followed by suicide once the sheer import of what they've done sinks in.

This chap apparently isn't bothered at all.

Whatever it is it ain't normal!!

[Magpie]

I can't help thinking that it would have been better (and more pragmatic) had he been "shot while trying to escape" rather than being arrested alive - the trial gives him a platform. I also assume that he is psychopathic, as opposed to insane - I can't believe that he will ever be let out.

[Otta]

Perhaps life in a secure hospital, rather than in prison. That would probably get around the max sentence thing.

Bit like Ian Brady.

[jim_the_chin]

re: the insanity thing, could be deulsional disorder:

"false beliefs based on incorrect inference about external reality that persist despite the evidence to the contrary and these beliefs are not ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture"

Not that it really matters much.