Neo Nazi poster in Peckham Rye Park (Lounged)

[Guest]

Joe Leg,

Thing is, I really really don't think you're bigoted, I've seen your posts on this thread and I generally agree with them and it's very obvious that you're a good, upstanding principled person who sticks up for whats right. And that's why we're able to have a proper conversation about it instead of a slanging match.

But I still think that it's unhelpful to agree with Peckhamguy in any way that his views are typical of his group. He likes being part of that group, and I feel that describing his behaviour in terms of group behaviour is not only incorrect, it gives him confidence and solidarity with 'his' group.

Second, there is an uncomfortable edge on this thread of people mocking Peckhamguy's lack of literacy, for example. We all know that we live in an area where there is growing tension between social groups and a growing gap between income brackets. Sideboys remark about lattes and nibbles was offensive to some extent because there's some truth in it. It was silly and belittling, but it referenced the real problem of house prices, gentrification and social exclusion of lower income brackets that I'm sure we're all uncomfortable about, whatever side of the divide we're on.

I really don't want this to come across as a group of posh people ganging up on a working class person and part of some kind of East Dulwich gentrification culture war. Because that is unpleasant in itself, and I think unhelpful in this specific case.

[Blah Blah]

But to be fair Amy, take a look at who brought class into it. Was it those rightly calling out support for a right wing website and its contents? This whole debate is not about house prices and gentrification. It is about the inability of someone to answer to their support for the contents of that website, and worse still, deflecting from having to answer for it by arguing that class has anything to do with the valid criticism of his position.

[Guest]

It's true that Peckhamguy was the first to claim the argument was about class and we were posh snobs ganging up on him.

But was it wise to follow him along that avenue of thought and apparently agree with him? Or would it be more effective to emphasise to him that his class is totally irrelevant ?

[rendelharris]

Amy A Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Second, there is an uncomfortable edge on this

> thread of people mocking Peckhamguy's lack of

> literacy, for example....

Amy, you really are not so much flogging a dead horse as a non-existent one here. I've taken the trouble to go back and look at every comment on this thread; one person made fun of Peckhamguy's use of English, and that was to say that he should get an earlier night and his English might be better as a consequence. Personally I took that as implying that as PG's posts were often in the early hours of the morning that he was one over the eight when posting. Be that as it may, that's the one post making fun of his English (if it is).

> I really don't want this to come across as a group

> of posh people ganging up on a working class

> person and part of some kind of East Dulwich

> gentrification culture war. Because that is

> unpleasant in itself, and I think unhelpful in

> this specific case.

I don't believe it would to anyone who views it objectively; it's a group of people who object to someone supporting a neo-nazi website, and to his replies which imply that he somehow has some "genuine" knowledge, due to his claimed class (I still can't help wondering if he is in fact an adolescent troll), which makes him right in his lack of objection to an utterly vile organisation. He was, incidentally, in his replies, quite rude to everyone else - far ruder than anyone has been to him - but you seem determined somehow to posit him as an injured party.

This thread started as a warning about neo-nazi posters, then became criticism - perfectly fair criticism - of someone who was offering tacit support for neo-nazis. The only things that have made it about a "gentrification culture war" have been your posts, which with all due respect I think have been somewhat hairtrigger in finding offence where no grounds for it exist (and before anyone else says it, I'm quite capable of doing that myself). I don't doubt your heart's in the right place, and if people had behaved in the way you seem to think they have towards PG your comments would be justified, but they haven't, and so I think to a large extent they're not.

[alice]

Rendelh yes you?re trying to be nice.

But your still totally wrong

[JoeLeg]

Amy A Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Joe Leg,

>

> Thing is, I really really don't think you're

> bigoted, I've seen your posts on this thread and I

> generally agree with them and it's very obvious

> that you're a good, upstanding principled person

> who sticks up for whats right. And that's why

> we're able to have a proper conversation about it

> instead of a slanging match.

>

> But I still think that it's unhelpful to agree

> with Peckhamguy in any way that his views are

> typical of his group. He likes being part of that

> group, and I feel that describing his behaviour in

> terms of group behaviour is not only incorrect, it

> gives him confidence and solidarity with 'his'

> group.

But his views *are* typical of a subset of white working class people who don?t like the idea that anyone else could have a grasp on how the world ?really is?. All too often we write people off like that by saying ?oh it?s just how they are? - I?ve done it myself for half my life, before realising that actually we need to continually challenge such views, wherever they occur, and I (and this is just my personal view) feel that if I won?t challenge them in the social/racial/whatever subset that I very much part of, then how can I look myself in the mirror?

Of course he isn?t representative of the entire white working class, but people like him *are* out there, and they *do* believe that they havecfar more support than really exists, and we *must* take every opportunity to remind them that the silent majority in which they place so much faith actually thinks they are pillocks.

>

> Second, there is an uncomfortable edge on this

> thread of people mocking Peckhamguy's lack of

> literacy, for example.

None of that came from me.

We all know that we live in

> an area where there is growing tension between

> social groups and a growing gap between income

> brackets.

Well, yes, and it?s a problem. A mahoosive problem. Not denying that. Also not saying it?s a reason to assume people with more money than me somehow don?t understand social issues. I?m sure you agree.

Sideboys remark about lattes and nibbles

> was offensive to some extent because there's some

> truth in it. It was silly and belittling, but it

> referenced the real problem of house prices,

> gentrification and social exclusion of lower

> income brackets that I'm sure we're all

> uncomfortable about, whatever side of the divide

> we're on.

Again, yes, your basic point is accurate. But that little dig about coffee and nibbles goes to show that the prejudice runs both ways. I agree that the working class has long been and still is given crap by some sections of society with more money than sense, but that doesn?t mean sinking to their level. It?s thay kind of thing that demonstrates there are those on both sides of the debate who could do with having a word with themselves.

>

> I really don't want this to come across as a group

> of posh people ganging up on a working class

> person and part of some kind of East Dulwich

> gentrification culture war. Because that is

> unpleasant in itself, and I think unhelpful in

> this specific case.

And I don?t think it is. For starters I?m hardly posh, and I?ve made that clear. Also even if I was, does that mean I?m not allowed to call Peckhamguy out? And moreover, isn?t that kind of stuff the sort of thing that gives rise to the idea that we?re giving people a pass?

I can?t shake the idea that somehow we?ve settled, as a society, into a weird kind of cognitive dissonance. On the one hand we all *know* that white working class people are no more or less likely to be bigots or indeed voluntary workers than anyone else, while on the other we often act unsurprised when one of them turns out to actually be a bigot, as if in the back of our mind we really assumed it all along. And then - and this is when it gets bad - we just shrug our shoulders and say ?well, that?s just how they are, they don?t mean any harm, it?s how they were raised?.

So yes, I think society assumes things about the white working class (just like it assumes things about pretty much every group, and that?s another thread entirely), and that doesn?t make it right, but that also doesn?t excuse it when actual bigotry raises its head.

And I know you agree with all this and o know I?m preaching to the choir, but I guess I?m just trying to explain myself. It?s something I feel very strongly about, I?ve come to realise.

[JoeLeg]

Amy A Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's true that Peckhamguy was the first to claim

> the argument was about class and we were posh

> snobs ganging up on him.

>

> But was it wise to follow him along that avenue of

> thought and apparently agree with him? Or would it

> be more effective to emphasise to him that his

> class is totally irrelevant ?

Yeah, maybe, you might have a point there; he dangled it and I took a bite.

But as I say, I?ve realised I feel strongly about this issue. There are many problems facing us as a society in this world, but I personally have had enough of hearing from people like myself that others just don?t understand the world we live in. This isn?t East Baltimore, it?s not South Africa, not Venezuela. This is London in the 21st century, and everyone gets an education and the right to be whoever they want to be. The ?class struggle? isn?t gone yet, but it?s a lot less than it was and frankly it?s nothing compared to the levels of racism and sexism that still wash around us.

So yes, it makes me angry when people still run that line, because frankly I think they?re just making excuses, In this case for being a racist but there?s others available.

Anyway, sorry for ranting.

[rendelharris]

alice Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Rendelh yes you?re trying to be nice.

> But your still totally wrong

Would you care to expand on that? What particularly do you object to in what I've said?

[JohnL]

I've got to say, as I've got older I care less and less what class people think I am (or other things).

Difficult to say for sure if it's me or the world or both.

[Captain Kernow]

Just back from Cornwall (visiting my working class farming roots, thankfully they go back past the Holocaust so always nice to see that side of the family ), to be honest I've skimmed through this thread since it descended into the usual BS, so wont pass comment any further.

If any more posters have been seen, please keep posting on here so I can keep the police informed.

[BJL]

Amy A Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>Sideboys remark about lattes and nibbles

> was offensive to some extent because there's some

> truth in it. It was silly and belittling, but it

> referenced the real problem of house prices,

> gentrification and social exclusion of lower

> income brackets that I'm sure we're all

> uncomfortable about, whatever side of the divide

> we're on.

Well, sidebirds' first EDF post asked for recommendations for cocktail bars in ED. He later said -

sidebirds Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I live just off Lordship Lane so it's a

> shame it seems there are no actual cocktail bars

> on LL (or even in ED).

Sounds like he'd quite like a bit more "gentrification".

[Louisa]

JoeLeg Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Amy A Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > It's true that Peckhamguy was the first to

> claim

> > the argument was about class and we were posh

> > snobs ganging up on him.

> >

> > But was it wise to follow him along that avenue

> of

> > thought and apparently agree with him? Or would

> it

> > be more effective to emphasise to him that his

> > class is totally irrelevant ?

>

>

> Yeah, maybe, you might have a point there; he

> dangled it and I took a bite.

>

> But as I say, I?ve realised I feel strongly about

> this issue. There are many problems facing us as a

> society in this world, but I personally have had

> enough of hearing from people like myself that

> others just don?t understand the world we live in.

> This isn?t East Baltimore, it?s not South Africa,

> not Venezuela. This is London in the 21st century,

> and everyone gets an education and the right to be

> whoever they want to be. The ?class struggle?

> isn?t gone yet, but it?s a lot less than it was

> and frankly it?s nothing compared to the levels of

> racism and sexism that still wash around us.

>

> So yes, it makes me angry when people still run

> that line, because frankly I think they?re just

> making excuses, In this case for being a racist

> but there?s others available.

>

> Anyway, sorry for ranting.

The whole time we remain a ?constitutional monarchy? - the reality of class exclusion continues. Regardless of what changes are made to encourage a more inclusive society. Our head of state and her family are in a position of power by right of birth and not by right of ballot. That in my opinion, sums up why we as a nation are unable to make the major advances forward most major democracies seem to have made. It all starts at the top.

Louisa.

[Blah Blah]

But then how do you explain power inequality and wealth inepquality in Republican democracies Louisa? If the Monarchy were abolished, it would make no difference to issues around wealth, class and privilege. Just look at America for an example!

[Louisa]

I absolutely agree Blah Blah. Becoming a republic doesn?t guarantee anything, but it goes a long way in laying the foundation stone for a equal society. If you live in a country where you cannot aspire to get the top job, then a class based structure will endure. This country has thrived on a class structure for generations, it needs overhauling at the top. This is a big topic, and I could talk for hours about hereditary piers and lords and ladies.

Louisa.

[JohnL]

Electing a President would take away power from the political parties in Westminster - rather than winning an election by voting for MPs we'd vote directly for a person (and it wouldn't be May, or probably not Corbyn either )

[Blah Blah]

But Louisa. That is not what happens in America is it? It is myth that Monarchy is the dynamic force here. It is not. Money is the dynamic force and the power that comes with it. We could easily end hereditary peerages. It would not stop the House of Lords being stuffed with privileged and wealthy people though would it? There is just no evidence that Republics are more equal than Monarchies, none whatsoever (you can go all the way back to Rome on that). Only by taking away the choices that financial privilege affords, over things like education, housing, and opportunity, can you address inequality. It is actually an argument against free market capitalism versus socialism that is the root behind class - not some single Royal Family that have no real power to do anything anyway.

[DaveR]

"Only by taking away the choices that financial privilege affords, over things like education, housing, and opportunity, can you address inequality."

I find it interesting that you argue that taking away freedom is the 'only' way to address inequality, and that "It is actually an argument against free market capitalism versus socialism". The developed countries that generally top the tables for the lowest levels of inequality (Scandinavian countries most often cited) don't have socialist economies and don't operate by 'taking away choices'. What they do is redistribute income both directly (through higher taxes and benefits) and indirectly (through high level of state supplied/subsidised services). The idea that inequality is driven by the level of social mobility has been largely debunked by looking at actual data, and also the contrast between income inequality and wealth inequality - by the latter measure, the Scandinavian countries don't look much different to the UK, for example.

There is an interesting debate to be had about the relationship between class, income and inequality in the UK but your essential proposition is not supported by the evidence.

NB I realise I am continuing the "usual BS" so for completeness, on topic, I would have thought two things at least were obvious - the first is that the content on the website linked to is proper, poisonous white supremacist racist stuff, and the second is that every word of this is shit:

"Haha cheers some, and most of you on here are very funny people in this thread 😂 very hypercritical it?s unreal

All of your hateful comments have made my day my week even

Thumbs up to private education hey 👋😂

You mostly know nothing about the issue, study it check it out properly then come back

All so worried about my English that u r sadly blinded by the real life

Have a beautiful day

Snobbery is a big thing on here but gladly there are some straight headed people on here what knows what the real world is all about, the true working class who has never had nothing handed to them on a plate the ones who actually see the real world.

Protesting things that u don?t know harm u is a thing what loads of people are doing, because know one knows the true depths of things

Anyways I?m sure a lot of u have met up and had some meetings in your nearest Starbucks and had a long good chat about the matter ,hopefully things went rite for the latte liberals"

[sidebirds]

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I agree with JoeLeg on everything. It is only a

> certain kind of person that displays the inverse

> snobbery that PeckhamGuy and Sidebirds have. It's

> the kind of inverse snobbery that becomes the

> excuse for hate, ignornance and a lazy outlook on

> the world. He has no intention of answering to his

> view that there is 'nothing wrong' with that neo

> nazi website. Fortunately, his kind don't

> represent the working class either.

"nverse snobbery"? I attended a private girls' school and now study at the Royal College of Music! But (OBV!) I wear my working-class credentials on my sleeve... MATE.

[sidebirds]

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > rendelharris Wrote:

> >

> -

> Peckhamguy's absurd statement that "the true

> working class who has never had nothing handed to

> them on a plate the ones who actually see the real

> world"

Nothing wrong with the quoted statement. The working-classes get it in the neck first and millions of them are righteously p*ssed off after having their wishes flouted by several decades of elected politicians.

[sidebirds]

BJL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Amy A Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> >Sideboys remark about lattes and nibbles

> > was offensive to some extent because there's

> some

> > truth in it. It was silly and belittling, but

> it

> > referenced the real problem of house prices,

> > gentrification and social exclusion of lower

> > income brackets that I'm sure we're all

> > uncomfortable about, whatever side of the

> divide

> > we're on.

>

> Well, sidebirds' first EDF post asked for

> recommendations for cocktail bars in ED. He later

> said -

>

> sidebirds Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I live just off Lordship Lane so it's a

> > shame it seems there are no actual cocktail

> bars

> > on LL (or even in ED).

>

> Sounds like he'd quite like a bit more

> "gentrification".

I'm a girl. You actually - like - MISGENDERED me. Possible "hate crime"?

PS No time to engage in arguments with strangers here. But enjoy the bickering while I'm gone.

[flocker spotter]

its like outdated class category top trumps on here these days

[rendelharris]

sidebirds Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > rendelharris Wrote:

> > >

> > -

> > Peckhamguy's absurd statement that "the true

> > working class who has never had nothing handed

> to

> > them on a plate the ones who actually see the

> real

> > world"

>

> Nothing wrong with the quoted statement. The

> working-classes get it in the neck first and

> millions of them are righteously p*ssed off after

> having their wishes flouted by several decades of

> elected politicians.

Nothing wrong with the quoted statement? You are aware that the context of the quoted statement was the claim that the working classes who've never had anything handed to them etc etc would agree with Peckhamguy that there was nothing wrong with a neo-nazi website?

You're getting rather silly in your desperate attempts to seem righteous now.

ETA The full sentence of which you've quoted part was: Just objecting to Peckhamguy's absurd statement that "the true working class who has never had nothing handed to them on a plate the ones who actually see the real world" would agree with him - plenty of my mates fit that description and don't think neo-nazis are OK.

Nice bit of selective quotation.

[JoeLeg]

sidebirds Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Blah Blah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I agree with JoeLeg on everything. It is only a

> > certain kind of person that displays the

> inverse

> > snobbery that PeckhamGuy and Sidebirds have.

> It's

> > the kind of inverse snobbery that becomes the

> > excuse for hate, ignornance and a lazy outlook

> on

> > the world. He has no intention of answering to

> his

> > view that there is 'nothing wrong' with that

> neo

> > nazi website. Fortunately, his kind don't

> > represent the working class either.

>

> "nverse snobbery"? I attended a private girls'

> school and now study at the Royal College of

> Music! But (OBV!) I wear my working-class

> credentials on my sleeve... MATE.

Like I give a crap what school you go to when you spout such rubbish about people who you perceive as being different to you.

Want some salt (Pink Himalayan, natch) for that massive chip on your shoulder?

Despite all your proclamations about how ?real? you are, and how much you seem to feel the need to point out to us that you?re still ?from the streets?, you can?t help missong the fact that you display exactly the same prejudice that you accuse others of. You have an inability to realise you?re just perpetuating the circle.

"The working-classes get it in the neck first and millions of them are righteously p*ssed off after having their wishes flouted by several decades of elected politicians."

Moving past the point made by Rendell that you've clumsily selectively quoted to try and make an argument, why does this excuse the idea that someone is ok supporting a neo-nazi website, and also how does this back up the idea that a working class person inherently has a better grip on how the world works?

The interesting point I would make about your education - which you seem so keen for us to know - is that it demonstrates social mobility does indeed exist, even if it is nowhere near the levels it should. From your background you've been privately educated and gotten into an excellent College; 100 years ago that would not have happened, probably even 50 years ago. Change comes too fast for those that resist it, and too slow for those that crave it - but it does come.

I also feel the need to repeat my point that there are sections of society still suffering far worse prejudice than the group we're discussing; that does not excuse the fact that the working class is still at the bottom of some piles, but there are opportunities open to them that were not there within living memory, and so long as we continue to educate ourselves and slowly, too slow unfortunately but still better than nothing, break down barriers then we are on the right path. Telling the middle class that they're a bunch of latte-loving know-nothings just makes you look like a fool. Like I say, this is not East Baltimore.

ETA - Sidebirds, the thing is you?re, what, 19 years old I think you said? So I reckon you?ve gone straight from your private school to your Royal College, and bluntly you know very little about the world. Here?s a tip - take a gap year, drop out for a while, something, anything, and go and travel. Or anything else that exposes you to stuff you?ve never seen, people you never thought you?d meet. Get out of your comfort zone, go and hang around people you?ve got nothing on common with, expand your horizons. You?re young and you think you know everything, so I can forgive this in you. Peclhamguy is older and should know better, but you don?t know anything expect what you?ve seen, and it isn?t as much as you think it is; trust me on this. It was true for me at your age, and I?ll bet the same for every other poster on the EDF.

For me it was the Army, but that?s not for everyone. And when I say ?gap year? I don?t mean something organised and safe, actually go and experience the world. Expand your horizons. Then come back and argue with me.

[Blah Blah]

Hi DaveR

I am not arguing for or against it. I was just pointing out that the notion that removing a Monarchy leads to greater equality is a myth. If we accept that money gives privilege then only doing something about that afforded privilege will address the inequality perceived to be represented by a Monarchy. Of course it is not the only way that inequality can be tackled. I'm neither Republican nor Monarchist. It just strikes me as odd that anyone would think that the Monarchy is somehow the glue that holds privilege together. I think we went past that place some time ago.

I actualy completely agree with you in fact. I often argue, within political debate, that mixed economies (like Scandinavia) have the best social outcomes and that it is finding the right balance between state and free market that is the key. I would call myself a socilaist democrat because of that.

[Louisa]

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> But Louisa. That is not what happens in America is

> it? It is myth that Monarchy is the dynamic force

> here. It is not. Money is the dynamic force and

> the power that comes with it. We could easily end

> hereditary peerages. It would not stop the House

> of Lords being stuffed with privileged and wealthy

> people though would it? There is just no evidence

> that Republics are more equal than Monarchies,

> none whatsoever (you can go all the way back to

> Rome on that). Only by taking away the choices

> that financial privilege affords, over things like

> education, housing, and opportunity, can you

> address inequality. It is actually an argument

> against free market capitalism versus socialism

> that is the root behind class - not some single

> Royal Family that have no real power to do

> anything anyway.

I think you miss my point Blah Blah. I am well aware that privilege in the 21st century isn?t purely about class, I also fully support your conclusion that many republics around the world are just as, if not more, unequal than the UK.

My point rather is that a wealthy family of unelected toffs, shoved down our throats daily by a state sponsored broadcaster (as well as others), get to be given the titles of Queen, King, Prince, Duke, Earl etc when not a single ballot was caste to give those people that position. And yet, we somehow are under the illusion that we can be a fully fledged 21st century democracy, supposedly a equal playing field too. It?s laughable. They must think the people are morons.

Our present monarch may not hold the keys to political power, but allowing such a outdated and frankly undemocratic system to flourish is not sending out the best message to people. People using food banks, people struggling to pay the bills, meanwhile every time they switch the TV on we are lead to believe that some royal wedding in a few months time will make everything better. It?s just wrong on so many levels, and solving all those economic and monetary inequalities when such a symbolic institution of wealth and birth privilege are allowed to flourish, seems ludicrous to me in the 21st century.

Louisa.