Neo Nazi poster in Peckham Rye Park (Lounged)

[Blah Blah]

I agree with JoeLeg on everything. It is only a certain kind of person that displays the inverse snobbery that PeckhamGuy and Sidebirds have. It's the kind of inverse snobbery that becomes the excuse for hate, ignornance and a lazy outlook on the world. He has no intention of answering to his view that there is 'nothing wrong' with that neo nazi website. Fortunately, his kind don't represent the working class either.

[JoeLeg]

sidebirds Wrote:

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>

>

>

> would you like to join me for a "latte" and

> "nibbles"

Well I don?t drink latte (or flat white or anything else), and I?m not really into nibbles so feel free to drink whatever you want while you try to explain to me why I?m not allowed to criticise a section of society which looks down its nose at me (the inverse snobbery is astonishing) because it thinks I?m somehow not ?real people?, as if the only ones who matter are defined by their adherence to a social code which venerates the denigration of academia and defines as ?out of touch? anyone who doesn?t cleave to what they perceive as correct etiquette? And at the same time refuse to see that they?re damning others with the same attitudes that they themselves rail against?

Peckham guy wears his social credentials proudly, which is cool, but then ignores the opinions of others based not on the arguments, but on whom he perceives to be making those arguments! If you aren?t his type of people, then de facto you are ignorant about anything worth knowing.

Utter rubbish, spouted by a troll.

L

and we can discuss these "white working

> class people"?

Well I think I just did up above, but you feel free to tell me why white working class people get a pass in bigotry when we wouldn?t tolerate it from anyone else?

feel free to bring a clothes-peg

> for your nose.

Won?t be smelling anything I haven?t before - my profession is pretty working class, frankly, my dads side of the family were proper Glasgow tenement folk, and my mum worked as an inner city state school teacher, and my mates (my proper ones) are about as working class as they come, so take your assumptions and shove them somewhere restricted.

ETA - yes, as Rendell mentions I?m ex-Army, infantry to be precise, and I invite anyone to hang around an infantry battalion for any length of time displaying class snobbery and see how long they last before getting filled in by the other guys and having an interview without coffee in the OC?s office! You want an environment where you learn to take people as you find them? That?ll do it.

[JoeLeg]

Also, if I DID drink latte, or Babysham, or Tennants Super or Lady sodding Grey tea, why would any of that matter?

If people eat ?nibbles? does that somehow make them unable to comprehend real world problems? If you?re working class are you not allowed to eat olives? Is it betraying the memory of the Krays?

What kind of garbage is it when a persons choice of drink and food is somehow a representation of their social strata and this their worldview?

Get a grip.

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

I don't know why you dignified it with a response Joe. It's either a troll or a Nazi sympathiser, so a waste of oxygen in either case.

[JoeLeg]

I thought about it for a while, and my feeling is that some stuff has to be challenged. Of course it?s very easy to fight back online, but maybe online is where it has to start. I don?t get into most of the discussions on here purely because I don?t have anything useful to offer to them, and I only challenge others when I feel strongly about something.

But some stuff can?t be allowed to slide. On the one hand we tell our kids - not just our own bit all of them - how important education is. On the other we sit back and let some groups disparage and denigrate the idea of learning. I?m fed up of hearing that white, working class Brits have it bad, when at the same time some of them (some, NOT all), seem happy to stay mired in a pit of self-pity, blaming others for their misery.

This isn?t a backwater of Afghanistan, we have genuine opportunity in this country. And anyone who tells that they are more ?real? than others while revelling in their ignorance is going to get an argument from me.

[Sally Eva]

I agree with your message. Could I ask you to include more people in it?

The most despicable remark in the Brexit IMO is Michael Gove "people in this country have had enough of experts".

This is a straightforward attack on knowledge.

[JoeLeg]

That quote from Gove is going to haunt him for a long time, but I?m fairness to him it?s been consistently taken out of context.

The full quote is ?I think the people in this country have had enough of experts with organisations from acronyms saying that they know what is best and getting it consistently wrong?, and he was speaking about predictions from the TUC, CBI, NHS and IFS that he was wrong on Brexit. It was a clumsy response to a question from a journalist and it was jumped on by many who certainly have had enough of being told things they just don?t want to hear.

I think (hope?) Gove regrets it, and I certainly think he should?ve done more to clarify his position subsequently, as it did a lot of damage and reinforced the notion some people hold that their baseless confidence is the equal of other people?s experience and learning.

[Sally Eva]

I'm not entirely sure that the context absolves him. It's an attack on people/organisations not because of what they think or state but because of what their names sound like.

[JoeLeg]

I don?t think he is absolved at all; he made the comment, which was badly phrased and open to wide misinterpretation, and he should in the subsequent days have clarified what he meant. Not that it would?ve made much difference, the damage was already done.

I think he has a point about various organisations having opinions which later turn out to be incorrect, and it shows up the danger of policy wonks and ?talking heads? being given too much credence off the basis of a sound bite of their views, bit then that says more about the attention span of some of the electorate than anything else. It also highlights the point that in this information-overload era we live in it can be nigh-on impossible to find meaningful debate when there are so many voices shouting at once.

[Guest]

Hey Frank / Peckhamguy and also Sidebirds with your jibes about lattes and nibbles.

I come from a council house in Downham and went to a comprehensive in Eltham. My family on one side are rag and bone men from the Old Kent Rd, on the other farm labourers from County Westmeath.

People on here shouldn't mock the way you write, Frank, or call you names. But you don't have to be middle class to find Neo nazi rascists disgusting.

And for those on this thread talking about the limited word view of the white working classes, I know you qualified it with 'some', but it's still a bit offensive. There are loads of white working class people who aren't bigots.

[eddeal1]

this is the kind of HATE AND EVIL people like EDF and Britain First and NEO NAZI spread.

they have sent these letters to muslims all over England.

[rendelharris]

Amy A Wrote:

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> And for those on this thread talking about the

> limited word view of the white working classes, I

> know you qualified it with 'some', but it's still

> a bit offensive. There are loads of white working

> class people who aren't bigots.

Indeed, and there are some who are - as demonstrated on this thread. And there are plenty of the middle classes who are and more than plenty of the upper class. Why is it offensive to say that some of any class are bigots when it's patently true?

[JoeLeg]

Amy A Wrote:

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>

> And for those on this thread talking about the

> limited word view of the white working classes, I

> know you qualified it with 'some', but it's still

> a bit offensive. There are loads of white working

> class people who aren't bigots.

Can you explain to me why we give the white working class a pass where bigotry is concerned? Why am I not allowed to call them out on it? I was very clear that I do not paint entire section of society with the same brush, but I do believe, very strongly, that we tiptoe around that group and write off the views of what I?m sure is a minority as being ?just how they are?.

Why exactly are we doing that?

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

Amy A, it is equally offensive to suggest that non-working class people are not able to see the real world or have had everything handed to them on a plate, or that they are all latte-drinking, nibble-eating snobs.

The only people on this thread that have made offensive generalisations about a whole class of people are Frank and Sidebirds. Your criticism is misplaced.

[edited to correct typo]

[Guest]

Hey Joe Leg,

I'm not sure that we do give the white working class a free pass on bigotry, do we? I think that as a group the white working class are generally portrayed predominantly as thick as a plank bigots, for example in the Brexit debates.

However, I'm not suggesting anyone gets a free pass for holding such unpleasant opinions. Simply that it's unhelpful and divisive to link bigotry to a social demographic. There are many white working class who do not hold those opinions. Equally there are many middle class people who, while they may show it differently, are rascist and anti-semitic.

Agreeing with his incorrect view that his racism is generally acceptable among the white working class reframes the argument as a class war and puts a barrier between those of us from different backgrounds who all agree. I just feel that, rather than turning it into middle class vs white working class, allowing irrelevant swipes about nibbles from idiots like Sidebirds it's better to stick to the important thing that joins us, which is that all right thinking people, of all backgrounds, hate rascism.

[Guest]

Rendelharris,

I've already kind of answered your point - but to reiterate, perhaps more clearly than above, I think it's a better idea to point out that Peckhamguy's horrible views have nothing to do with being him being 'true working class' and that the people opposing him are not snobs.

[JohnL]

Those of us who work are working class IMHO :) Beware The System Resistance Network is not working class - it's probably an alias of National Action (a banned terror group).

"National Action is a far-right neo-Nazi organisation based in the United Kingdom. Founded in 2013, in December 2016 it was proscribed as a terrorist group by the UK government."

"System Resistance Network (SRN) is a group that is believed to have been putting up homophobic and anti-refugee posters in Dundee, Swansea, Cardiff and Bristol and is claimed by Hope Not Hate to be another alias of National Action"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Action_(UK)

[Guest]

Actually, P.O.U.S, I don't think my criticism of several posts equating being white working class with being racist IS misplaced.

I already responded directly to Peckhamguy and Sidebirds telling them they are wrong, and there's no causal link between their working class 'realness' and their vile views. I agree with you that working class people aren't any more 'real' than other people.

What is misplaced in this thread is to agree with Peckhamguy that his rascism is an essential part of his White Working class-ness. To do so props up his sense of self righteousness and opens you up to a charge of anti-working class prejudice. It puts divisions between those of us who are appalled by the neo nazi site and Peckhamguy's posts and divides us into factions ready to squabble (as we are doing).

As someone else said, higher up, fortunately Peckhamguy doesn't represent the working class, either. He just represents bigots.

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

I compeletly agree that Frank doesn't represent working class. Neither I nor anyone else on this thread have suggested that.

Frank was the one that introduced class into the discussion; Joe was responding to that particular point. No-one else on this thread, other than Sidebirds, has made any suggestion that any characteristic can be attributed to an entire class of people. Hence, your criticism of people doing so to working class people is misplaced.

I repeat - the only people on this thread that have made generalisations about an entire class are the Frank and Sidebirds, who have made offensive representations of people who aren't working class. And not that it should be relevant, but I'm white working class myself.

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

And for what it's worth, I also agree with your premise that suggesting racism is an essential part of being white working class is counterproductive. It's just that no-one here has actually done that.

[Louisa]

I consider myself working class. I can assure you that, racism, homophobia and any other sort of bigotry is not representive of the white working classes, and nor do I believe they should be given a free pass for spouting irrational and frankly dangerous opinions. Surely the days of overt bigotry are over? Or at least I would hope so. Anyone spouting or promoting such opinions shouldn?t be given a get out of jail free card for using their class as a back up to support any sort of divisive world outlook.

Having said all of the above of course, I frankly find it offensive that other organisations run predominantly by upper/middle class white males of a certain age, are allowed to articulate a much more dangerous variety of xenophobia and racism, which is given credence through the media in print and television, somehow legitimising it. This is the problem with these things. Those that have the funds and education, who clearly know better, are able to get away with offensive outdated opinions, whilst those at the bottom of the pile are held up as the face of extremism and racism. Maybe it is worth starting with those in the most visible and influential positions first.

The working classes of all races have been treated with disrespect for generations, whilst those above them get away with it.

Louisa.

[Guest]

P.O.U.S.theWonderCat Wrote:

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> And for what it's worth, I also agree with your

> premise that suggesting racism is an essential

> part of being white working class is

> counterproductive. It's just that no-one here has

> actually done that.

If a sentence begins 'I know not all Jews are ... (insert bad thing)... BUT' or 'I know not all black people are .... BUT' then that person generally does believe that all Jewish people are whatever, and all black people are whatever.

So if someone says ' I know not all white working class people are bigots... but I strongly believe we give white working class people a free pass on bigotry and tiptoe around them.' then I tend to find myself disregarding the first three words of the statement.

If we've agreed that you find rascism across all strata of society and that Peckhamguy's rascism is not representative of the white working class as a whole, why are we talking about giving the white working class, as a whole, a free pass on bigotry?

[JoeLeg]

Amy A Wrote:

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>

> If a sentence begins 'I know not all Jews are ...

> (insert bad thing)... BUT' or 'I know not all

> black people are .... BUT' then that person

> generally does believe that all Jewish people are

> whatever, and all black people are whatever.

>

> So if someone says ' I know not all white working

> class people are bigots... but I strongly believe

> we give white working class people a free pass on

> bigotry and tiptoe around them.' then I tend to

> find myself disregarding the first three words of

> the statement.

>

> If we've agreed that you find rascism across all

> strata of society and that Peckhamguy's rascism is

> not representative of the white working class as a

> whole, why are we talking about giving the white

> working class, as a whole, a free pass on bigotry?

I?ve taken a couple of days to think about your points, which are reasonable and well put, as they?ve given me a lot to think about.

I?m reject the idea that I am tainting a whole group of people with my commentary. I stand by my view - and let me clarify it - that I believe some parts of the white working class embrace the idea that they, and only they, have a true understanding of the nature of the world. It is not so much the racism endemic in Peckhamguys posts that set me off a few days ago, rather his assumption that only someone like him truly sees the world as it is, because of his background. He?s more ?real? than the rest of us.

Why does it rile me so, when the same viewpoint can be found all over society, as you rightly point out? I think because Peckhamguy and me are probably not that different in background, upbringing and ?class?. I live in East Dulwich, but I was also born here and grew up here when it was very different. I certainly can?t afford to shop in most of Lordship Lane. And so I feel particularly aggrieved by Peckhamguy because me and him aren?t so different, but he?s talking trash which is not only unhelpful but frankly just dangerous. This idea that education is somehow a betrayal of your roots really, really gets to me, and that is what he?s espousing, and I?ve heard it elsewhere, and it makes me angry every time.

Look, there are myriad examples across all social, racial and economic groups of this issue. I?m sure we can all think of several. But this one gets to me because it?s my background, and I think it really is that simple.

So yes Amy A, you?re right that people often use this kind of thing as a cover to be generally bigoted, but that isn?t the case with me. Maybe I?m clumsy in my use of language, maybe I didn?t think my arguments through and it looks like something else, and if so I apologise.

I?m just really fed up with listening to people who aren?t so different to me and have had similar opportunities in life being absolute twats. I could drone on and on about what makes me angry, but it essentially comes down to this; education is everything, education is what lifts people up, education is the key to society moving forward, to progress - however slowly it may come, it doesn?t come without learning and curiosity and being open-minded. Anything that stands against that, stands against making us better as humans.

[Blah Blah]

Well said Joe.

[JohnL]

Anyway when it comes to racism it seems Jeremy Corbyn is now talking to the Judean Peoples Front instead of the Popular Front of Judea or the Peoples Front of Judea and this is a huge insult to everybody.

(I know it's more complex than that and I'm going to find out who JewDas really are later)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43624231