De Menezes Police Trial

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

I was referring to:

vanillanewts Wrote:

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> just wondering how many people slagging off the

> police officers' actions that morning reckon they

> could do that job in those circumstances when lets

> face it, the majority of people in London were too

> scared to get on the tubes/buses/let alone put

> themselves on the front line to protect london

> against such atrocities.

My point was that he is basically saying that we should be lucky we have officers putting themselves on the front line(when it is their JOB ) and stating we were all scared(people still went about their business so I dont know where the latter cane from) which is no excuse for what happened that day. Suicide bombers are not the norm in the UK. And as far as I am concerned, life does not stop because of 9/11.

I mentioned Turkey, Israel etc because they are countries who live with the threats of suicide bombers and terrorists every single day of their lives, and over the years have had to deal with these kind of people. They are more or less aware that you cannot really stop these kind of people, because they are not scared to die, how do you stop someone who WANTS to die for a cause and take down as many people with them as possible? all of this can only be stopped before the person actually steps out onto the street in public to do what they think they need to do to get to paradise and become a hero but for every person you stop, there is another brainwashed person at home making a bomb to get to paradise and have their nubile virgins, honeys and milk.

I still fail to understand how letting the person leave home, go to a public place, yell at them to stop and then give chase is an effective way to deal with a suicide bomber, who was NOT Wearing a THICK jacket.

I think the fact the man was from Brazil cocked their plain up, has he been muslim, they would have said "well, he WAS muslim, and he did act suspicious etc" but alas, he was from Brazil, their investigations was a complete shambles, and they lied to cover up all their errors.

God bless our police force!

[Michael Palaeologus]

HeidiHi has a particular attachment to Turkey, although I too am a bit confused about the claim that Turkey has unusually suffered from bombings.

[mockney piers]

I think you really need to chill out there sister. I don't think people live their lives in Tel Aviv or Ankara any differently to people in London or Madrid, especially having long lived with threats from the IRA and ETA respectively.

We get on with our lives and trust the police to do their best.

Mistakes get made and f**k ups happen, and yes people die. What you want in an open society is that lessons are learned. That's the issue here, that the police tried to obfuscate the facts and effectively cover up rather than say whoops, what can we do to make sure it doesn't happen again.

I'm pretty sure they've looked at this internally and done their best to improve. It was disappointing to hear i.blair and reid (was it reid? I dunno reid/clarke/blunkett were all cut from the same cloth) say that kratos would continue, but the evidence since then doesn't really support that stance.

But you're coming across as a bit hysterical, life hasn't changed for us, the suicide thing isn't a huge shift in the threats we've faced, just a different slant. Put it to the back of your mind and worry about not having your mobile on show and covering up your pin at the ATM; these are issues which are infinitely more likely to affect you.

[fish]

Michael Palaeologus Wrote:

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> HeidiHi has a particular attachment to Turkey,

> although I too am a bit confused about the claim

> that Turkey has unusually suffered from bombings.

PKK bombings and, of course, the bombings of the Synagogue, the HSBC and the British High Commission.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Am I getting confused here? People seem to be suggesting that HeidiHi is saying we could/should be more like those countries (in a BAD way) when what I read from Heidi's post was exactly the same as Mockney's point - ie, other countries have learned to live with a terrorist threat so let's not all jump off a cliff* because bombs are going off here

* or anything else stupid. Such as meaningless security checks at airports. New legislation. Fan the flames of "terror" by suggesting people are shot dead because they look darker than they are or.... oh wait we already have done those things

But Mockney's advice remains good for any of us posting - a deep breath before hitting the keys helps any point come across better ;-)

[downsouth]

I'm inclined to agree with Sean. Heidi hasn't said anything outlandish, far from. her point is that we tend to overreact in this country and in truth it aint half bad. Turkey and the mid East are times worse than here. They (Israel) had to build a gargantuan series of - legal/illegal - walls to reduce the numbers of suicide bombers. You all forget how regular those news reports came in about devestation.

In saying that I agree I do have sympathy with the police who on this subject will be damned if they do and damned if they don't. Hopefully they will follow Heidi's point and intercept before a suspect enters a public space.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

You need to read the website regardings bombings and such in Turkey, there is a lot more bombings then you think, but MP, this has nothing to do with my liking hummus and going to Turkey for holidays! I am giving examples of countries that have lots of bombings in their countries. I didn't understand what Vanillanewts was trying to say by saying we were all too scared to get on the tubes and such, I dont recall that. As you said, we had the IRA before, and to be honest, the media really did hype up a lot of these fears regarding bombs etc.

I am being misunderstood.

My argument is:

The police made a mistake, so learn from mistakes, they have to hold their hands up and say " we made a mistake" but they have not. and THAT is the problem.

[Michael Palaeologus]

Are you infering that atrocities such as the Birmingham pub bombings were hyped up?

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Michael Palaeologus Wrote:

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> Are you infering that atrocities such as the

> Birmingham pub bombings were hyped up?

I have no idea what you are talking about so I cannot comment on that.

I am talking about suicide bombings in the UK since 9/11. That is ALL I am talking about.

Sean and Downsouth, you seemed to understand what i am attempting and failing to say! Thank you.

[mamafeelgood]

i am still intersted by the fact that another mr blair never resigned after killing ... well how many is it now with an illegal war?

i am at a loss over this case, it's so sad but, and i know i am going to be in a massive minority here, having worked closely with the police in brixton i think the met often get a bad rep (justifiably) but they do good as well. some things that blair has said are actually rather good, i did love his comments about cocaine snorting middle class hypocrites.

yes, in reality, he should resign, but if the situation arose again i fear it would be repeated.

[vanillanewts]

heidi- i distinctly remember tube journeys the week after the bombings-on the northern line-at rush hour-actually having seats to choose from. I can recall the nervousness people had- the eerie atmosphere. I also remember hearing the met having hundreds of bomb scares each day for months after as everyone became so jumpy. i also clearly remember tens of colleagues and friends refusing for months to use our public transport. i hope this somewhat clarifies that particular point.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Did anyone else notice that the day after the shooting Gerry Adams sounded the final retreat?

[Michael Palaeologus]

I came into work on the Tube the day after the London tube bombings. People were scared but quite defiant.

The driver came on the Tannoy to give a standard announcement and then said "When I started work I thought I would be driving an empty train through empty stations, but I am not. Thank you"

Brought a tear to my eye.

[Michael Palaeologus]

Birmingham pub bombings - part of a 1970s IRA campaign of bombings in the mainland UK. 21 people killed in a series of bombs in cellar bars of central Birmingham. Many more maimed for life, created enormous strains between the Birmingham Irish and the rest of the city's population.

We SHOULDNT forget history -this is the only way that we dont make mistakes twice. If people dont know about our history of terrorism, then they need to surf the net and learn. Terrorism did not start on 9/11 - many, many people lost their lives before then and many lessons were learned about how to deal with a terrorist threat. Sadly those lessons are so easily forgotten.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Michael Palaeologus Wrote:

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> Birmingham pub bombings - part of a 1970s IRA

> campaign of bombings in the mainland UK. 21 people

> killed in a series of bombs in cellar bars of

> central Birmingham. Many more maimed for life,

> created enormous strains between the Birmingham

> Irish and the rest of the city's population.

>

> We SHOULDNT forget history -this is the only way

> that we dont make mistakes twice. If people dont

> know about our history of terrorism, then they

> need to surf the net and learn. Terrorism did not

> start on 9/11 - many, many people lost their lives

> before then and many lessons were learned about

> how to deal with a terrorist threat. Sadly those

> lessons are so easily forgotten.

I was born in 1977 so before my time it seemed.

The thing is Michael, from day one, there has been war,killings, and so forth and we NEVER learn.

That is just human nature, we will continue until the world ends or humans cease to exist to have endless, pointless killings.

What can we do? the majority of us don't kill and do not need to know about history to know that killings are wrong, but there are always going to be people in power abusing their power and encouraging wars, and killings, and then you got those who are just a waste of space on this earth and are pure evil.

What to do? even in this day and age, us little people are powerless to help.

Look at the marches we go on to encourage an end to war, and so forth, it is fruitless.

[Michael Palaeologus]

With that I agree.

I think that the reaction of the state to terrorism is based on historic experience. Thus the constant reminders and the demands for vigilance are justified because we, the public have to be the eyes are ears of the state. So not hype, but experience.

However, to then balls up as completely as they did at Vauxhall is a systems failure of epic proportions.Then to obstruct the investigation (which was your original point) is unforgivable. He should go.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Mike

Given your statement:

"Birmingham pub bombings - part of a 1970s IRA campaign of bombings in the mainland UK. 21 people killed in a series of bombs in cellar bars of central Birmingham. Many more maimed for life, created enormous strains between the Birmingham Irish and the rest of the city's population.

We SHOULDNT forget history -this is the only way that we dont make mistakes twice."

I would argue that the lesson that should have been learned was not to look, under public pressure/panic, for the nearest fit-up a la Birmingham Six/Guildford Four/ De Menezes/only doing our job/we're very brave really

Now, I AM being slightly facetious there... but not much. The deal, the, if you like, difference between us "good guys" and the "baddies" is how we react. Western foreign policy may or may not contribute to Islamic disturbance, it doesn't justify the extreme reactions. Ditto Saudi bombers crashing into Twin Towers. Do we NEED to start a 5 year campaign Iraq??

On a more silly note, the IRA bombings cause UK reaction (pulling Kerrygold butter off the shelves???? That well known source of IRA funding)

[Michael Palaeologus]

I have a pack of Kerygold in my fridge - just to show how open minded I am.

[spadetownboy]

Peckhamgatecrasher Wrote:

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> Did anyone else notice that the day after the

> shooting Gerry Adams sounded the final retreat?

what final retreat would that be?

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Poor choice of words. The day after the shooting Adams was on the box reiterating the ceasefire. The cynic in me wondered if it was cos the cops had demonstrated a shoot to kill policy on terrorists rather vividly.

[spadetownboy]

listen mate we had shoot to kill long before it appeared over here,so i dont think gerry and the boys would be too concerned,been there,seen it and done it.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

post deleted for inebriated, inflammatory response.

God bless you Spadetownboy.