Your views on Foie Gras

[Huguenot]

I'm reminded of a certain direct action group who, when challenged publicly about their beliefs and methods would respond with an attack on 'the other side'. Radio interviews about their justification for terrorist atrocities would invariably start.. 'The British Government...'

It sounded idiotic, and was a pointer to the essential bankruptcy of their position. They couldn't justify their approach and went onto the offensive to deflect attention.

It's both naive and narcissistic in assuming both that other people will be deceived by the red herring and deterred by the bluster.

[KidKruger]

Voyageur Wrote:

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> KidKruger Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > But it's just a slagging match now - right ?

>

> Absolutely - who can be more abusive to whom I

> guess. Topic matter seems irelevant.

> ParkDrive:That's your opinion and you're entitled to it, regardless of how wide of the mark you may be.

But that's all that is happening now Parky, a to-and-fro of trading insults. Your reply says you think otherwise, how so ? The last day or two's exchanges have basically been of the "my Dad's bigger than your Dad" order.

[Parkdrive]

Right here it is;

On the one hand you have those who believe that its ok to boast about enjoying a product resulting from pre-meditated cruelty to animals, on the other hand those who don't thats ok, and find such boasting repellent and nauseating. That's it no more no less. The more those who believe its ok to defend such boasting and by default cruelty, the more I'll attack it. Incidentally I note that an earlier post stated that there was no scientific evidence to prove that force feeding was nore distressing, painful or cruel that other farming methods. Equally there was no evidence put forward to say it was LESS cruel, LESS painful or LESS distressing to animals. I'm astounded that in the 21st century there are people who think such medieval practices are ok because it produces a so called delicacy.

[Lowlander]

This reminds me of the free-range chicken vs battery chicken debate.

You can get ethical Foie Gras. I

I am mystified as to why many vegetarians on this thread will eat battery chicken/eggs and drink mass-produced milk / dairy products (google "intensive dairy farming"), both of which undeniably result in wider suffering to animals than foie-gras production.

Finally, have a look at pork production in Denmark and other EU countries - also scandalous.

Perhaps it's because Foie Gras and fox hunting are seen as being for the well-off and upper classes, so a form of reverse snobbery.

[Lowlander]

Parkdrive Wrote:

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> .... Incidentally I note that an

> earlier post stated that there was no scientific

> evidence to prove that force feeding was nore

> distressing, painful or cruel that other farming

> methods.

Boiling lobster?

Cattle producing your milk raised in their own faeces, penned in and their young taken away at a young age and slaughtered? And the survivors not living their full life?

Battery hens producing vast amounts of eggs?

Those three alone far, far outweigh any suffering caused by foie gras production

[Parkdrive]

Lowlander Wrote:

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> This reminds me of the free-range chicken vs

> battery chicken debate.

>

> You can get ethical Foie Gras. I

>

> I am mystified as to why many vegetarians on this

> thread will eat battery chicken/eggs and drink

> mass-produced milk / dairy products (google

> "intensive dairy farming"), both of which

> undeniably result in wider suffering to animals

> than foie-gras production.

>

> Finally, have a look at pork production in Denmark

> and other EU countries - also scandalous.

>

> Perhaps it's because Foie Gras and fox hunting are

> seen as being for the well-off and upper classes,

> so a form of reverse snobbery.

Reverse snobbery, fcuk me so so wide of the mark it beggars belief and avoids the fact that force feeding animals is wrong. Regardless of whether there are worse/better ways of rearing livestock, force feeding is wrong. That is the nub of the argument. By the way you seem to have assumed I and others putting this argument forward and veggies and/or Guardian readers by way of trying to insult us. Just for the record I'm neither.

[Lowlander]

Parkdrive Wrote:

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>

> Reverse snobbery, fcuk me so so wide of the mark

> it beggars belief and avoids the fact that force

> feeding animals is wrong. Regardless of whether

> there are worse/better ways of rearing livestock,

> force feeding is wrong. That is the nub of the

> argument. By the way you seem to have assumed I

> and others putting this argument forward and

> veggies and/or Guardian readers by way of trying

> to insult us. Just for the record I'm neither.

My apologies to for inferring that this was down to reverse snobbery.

I've made no comment on the Guardian until now but, for the record, am an occasional reader of that paper myself (in addition to most other serious newspapers).

Personally, I don't eat foie-gras, but am asking for someone to explain why they feel it acceptable to (for example) drink milk from intensively reared cattle yet argue against foie gras?

It would be nice if we could conduct this discussion in an amicable fashion.

[Huguenot]

Lobsters have it easy compared with gill net or long line fishing, which may allow fish several days to asphyxiate or bleed to death. Even fish that get caught and released can die over 3 days as lactic acid from struggling (like when your muscles get tired after exercise) alters their metabolism and shuts down their organs.

But I guess Parkdrive hasn't shared his position on these?

Looking forward to hearing whether these are okay, and whether Foie Gras is the only 'disgusting' one?

[KidKruger]

I think, unless there's a Jain in the house, no-one's qualified to judge - for fear of bring selective or hypocritical.

[Parkdrive]

Huguenot Wrote:

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> Lobsters have it easy compared with gill net or

> long line fishing, which may allow fish several

> days to asphyxiate or bleed to death. Even fish

> that get caught and released can die over 3 days

> as lactic acid from struggling (like when your

> muscles get tired after exercise) alters their

> metabolism and shuts down their organs.

>

> But I guess Parkdrive hasn't shared his position

> on these?

>

> Looking forward to hearing whether these are okay,

> and whether Foie Gras is the only 'disgusting'

> one?

When someone starts a thread on the ethics of eating/not eating fish caught in such a way, I'll add my opinion, this thread is for views on FG.

[woodrot]

.

[Jeremy]

Parkdrive, you don't think that reference points are useful when discussing whether something is morally right or wrong?

[Huguenot]

Surely it's also legitimate as part of the debate to ask why Foie Gras should be singled out?

If it should transpire that eaters of Foie Gras are indeed as 'disgusting' as you say, would we still come to the same conclusion if we discover that consumers of cod and chips and tuna sandwiches are equally abhorrent?

Would we be quite so loose with our attacks if we knew we were about to be hoist by our own petard?

Not to get all hoity toity about it, but there's considerable moral weight in the observation that people in greenhouses shouldn't throw stones.

[Parkdrive]

As I've said before, this thread is/was about FG, my disgust is not just about the eating of it but the way its produced. If they're other foodstuffs produced in equally shameful, abhorrent ways, I'll back those that protest against such practices. I rather hoped that rather than put down those who despise FG producction, there would be more that spoke against the way its " traditionally" produced. All I see are those who wish to mock anyone who puts forward an anti sentiment.

[Loz]

Parkdrive Wrote:

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> Thanks for your concern, but it takes a lot more than the ramblings of an odious EDF poster to

> spoil my day. People with such disgusting tastes need to be told they're wrong as they can't see it

> themselves. As for being wound up by Loz, I'm pretty sure his blood pressure goes through the

> roof every time I tweak his pompous nose.

I'm skiing/snowboarding in Austria with blue skies and perfect snow at the moment so believe me, my blood pressure is the lowest ever. Stopping by occasionally in the evenings to make you rant, blow your top and swear a lot is just a big fun Brucie bonus. Everyone seems to have spotted this. Except you.

Which is nice.

[Parkdrive]

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Parkdrive Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > Thanks for your concern, but it takes a lot more

> than the ramblings of an odious EDF poster to

> > spoil my day. People with such disgusting tastes

> need to be told they're wrong as they can't see

> it

> > themselves. As for being wound up by Loz, I'm

> pretty sure his blood pressure goes through the

> > roof every time I tweak his pompous nose.

>

> I'm skiing/snowboarding in Austria with blue skies

> and perfect snow at the moment so believe me, my

> blood pressure is the lowest ever. Stopping by

> occasionally in the evenings to make you rant,

> blow your top and swear a lot is just a big fun

> Brucie bonus. Everyone seems to have spotted this.

> Except you.

>

> Which is nice.

Jesus, I'm not getting under your skin. So why the need to tell me where you are or what you're doing? Like I or anyone else gives a fcuk. Here's hoping you holiday goes the same way as the slopes, all downhill. Enjoy, pompous arse.

[Loz]

Parkdrive Wrote:

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> Jesus, I'm not getting under your skin. So why the

> need to tell me where you are or what you're

> doing? Like I or anyone else gives a fcuk. Here's

> hoping you holiday goes the same way as the

> slopes, all downhill. Enjoy, pompous arse.

Oh, merely to provide a comparison. Me, out here, in the snow, relaxing. You, at home, mouth frothing and wiping spittle from your keyboard with a towel.

[Lowlander]

Parkdrive Wrote:

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> As I've said before, this thread is/was about FG,

> my disgust is not just about the eating of it but

> the way its produced. If they're other foodstuffs

> produced in equally shameful, abhorrent ways, I'll

> back those that protest against such practices. I

> rather hoped that rather than put down those who

> despise FG producction, there would be more that

> spoke against the way its " traditionally"

> produced. All I see are those who wish to mock

> anyone who puts forward an anti sentiment.

I never buy foie gras, and always buy organic, unpasteurised milk from the farmers market. As I see it, intensively reared cattle is, by scale at least, far worse than foie gras.

My question to you is - where do you get your milk from, and are you aware of the welfare of the animals involved? Why single out FG???

[Santerme]

He likes the phrase pompous arse, a lot!

[KidKruger]

I've never eaten FG and the thought of it disgusts me, I hate liver.

[Alex K]

If this comes down to "shame" and "abhorrence", then are either foie gras or the methods used to produce it subjects for logic?

Gavage of poultry... no, I've never done that. But I've caponised half a spring's hatch when the cockerels started to declare themselves, squeaky adolescent attempts at crowing. As I learnt through this forum, caponising fowl is regarded in the UK as no better than declawing cats.

No shame. No abhorrence of the act, no vow to crush that set of caponising tools now on some shelf in my brother's shed in another country, to drown my book.

Forty-five years ago those tools meant meat over winter from half of spring's chickens, the half that would never lay eggs, that otherwise were really not of much use to anyone. (And capon was MUCH better than culled post-menopausal failed old ex-laying hen, which was best as soup.) Nowadays I can pick up a tender chicken, ready drawn and plucked, from Sainsbury's all year round, although I do wish that they came with giblets... The tools can gather dust for all I care. I don't need to caponise cockerels any longer, and I don't.

Looking back, I don't feel bad about those cockerels.

"But you ought to," someone might respond. "But I don't," is my answer.

Maybe, in a Whiggish perspective, one day I shall, and be the better for it. Maybe.

What I should like is that the choice to eat capon, or foie gras, or not to eat either, be left with me; that I be the one to assess "ought to" and "abhorrence" and "shame". That's not possible in Britain any longer. We're a meddlesome society, fingers all through each other's pies, steadily less tolerant of one another, or so it seems to me.

Odd that "An Englishman's home is his castle" should have been so thoroughly swept away.

[Parkdrive]

I never buy foie gras, and always buy organic, unpasteurised milk from the farmers market. As I see it, intensively reared cattle is, by scale at least, far worse than foie gras.

My question to you is - where do you get your milk from, and are you aware of the welfare of the animals involved? Why single out FG???

Well Lowlander, the name of the thread sort of gives the game away. As for milk I drink lactose free stuff as my body can't take lactose.

[Parkdrive]

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Parkdrive Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Jesus, I'm not getting under your skin. So why

> the

> > need to tell me where you are or what you're

> > doing? Like I or anyone else gives a fcuk.

> Here's

> > hoping you holiday goes the same way as the

> > slopes, all downhill. Enjoy, pompous arse.

>

> Oh, merely to provide a comparison. Me, out here,

> in the snow, relaxing. You, at home, mouth

> frothing and wiping spittle from your keyboard

> with a towel.

Altenatively, me typing previous message on a blackberry, laughing at you because you think anyone gives a shit about where you were when you composed your drivel. Prententious pratt.

[Santerme]

Actually I would be quite interested to know where Loz is and what the snow is like

Thinking of a quick jaunt to the slopes myself

[Lowlander]

Parkdrive Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I never buy foie gras, and always buy organic,

> unpasteurised milk from the farmers market. As I

> see it, intensively reared cattle is, by scale at

> least, far worse than foie gras.

>

> My question to you is - where do you get your milk

> from, and are you aware of the welfare of the

> animals involved? Why single out FG???

>

> Well Lowlander, the name of the thread sort of

> gives the game away. As for milk I drink lactose

> free stuff as my body can't take lactose.

So by your own admittance you buy milk that comes from dairys that keep cattle in unatural conditions, intensively reared, who live about half their normal lifespan?

Where the calves are taken away and slaughtered at a young age, just so that you can have your milk?

Charming. But it's your choice!

Intensive dairy farming affects millions more cows than foie gras production affects geese. And don't come to me about milk being necessary, look to China, Japan and South-East Asia where (until recently) the consumption of dariy was virtually non-existant. Yet they have strong bones, teeth and in parts of Japan have fantastic life expectancy.