Child Abuse???? advice please

[Alan Medic]

zeban Wrote:

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> Really you don't think Moos is getting defensive?

> I do! But I'm sorry if I'm wrong.

I think you probably are, maybe because you aren't a parent.

[helena handbasket]

Ha Moos but therein lies the rub.......... there is no such thing as "getting it right". So we plod on and do the best we can and learn a few tricks, make a few (or a lot) of mistakes and love our children to bits.

I learned a long time ago that the people who criticize are never around help make it better or to support you in your triumphs.

[mockney piers]

As I held my firstborn in my arms after a 60 hour labour (i had the hard part, keeping everyone entertained, getting my hand squeezed, no drugs for me you know!!) I resigned myself to the fact that as a parent you will simply get everything wrong. every decision has a downside, you just try to minimise the damage you do and try to squeeze some good bits in the the best you can.

From what I can see you're doing a pretty darn good job thus far Moos, just let yourself trust you in your instincts (if that doesn't sound a bit severe personality disorder).

[ladywotlunches]

So, OP, have you been able to spend time in your garden on this fine day, and experience first hand what is going on next door?

Until then, there seems to be lots of speculation as to whether something bad is happening (both next door to you or, it seems, in other forumites houses, according to their fellow forumites! :) )

[zeban]

No I don't have children Pickle and Alan Medic, as most of you know on here.

I do however have qualifications in child psychology hence why I'm interested in this thread- was going to become a teacher but changed my mind! I've also grown up around children and my best friends have children whom I am around to help. Back to the issue at hand, whether there's something fishy or not happening it's worth innvestigating instead of dismissing it as somene else' problem.

[mockney piers]

"both next door to you or, it seems, in other forumites houses, according to their fellow forumites"

I know what you mean. You wouldn't want to live around here if a cultural revolution ever kicked off would you!!!

[helena handbasket]

The thing about the baby monitor doesn't actually sound that bad. If you have a large house and baby's room is upstairs that's how it is anyway. In fact, that's the point of having a monitor. Our old Victorian terrace had three levels of bedrooms, as many do. That's a long way to the lounge. In fact it was a long way between bedrooms!

I get your point about blurred lines, it's so hard to know. Aside from the safety issue (which the locked door is), I kind of feel like if the lines are blurred than it's not "that" wrong, so maybe leave it to them to decide? I hear all sorts of reasons for parenting decisions; some reasonable and some a bit different (creative?) But the only thing that I really feel is my business is if it's dangerous.

cuppa tea Wrote:

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> new mother Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > CT most people don't do that as it is a fire

> > hazard....

>

>

> Yes, this was what worried me about it most. I

> don's see this friend much, but I have to mention

> it next time I do. It's one of those things that I

> didn't react to straight away because I was a

> shocked. Bit disappointed in myself! It's an

> example of how lines are blurred in that she is a

> very good loving parent in every other

> way....sometimes at the end of our tethers we do

> less than loving things to our children.

>

> Another horror story: I remember a neighbour, who

> lived upstairs, asking me to babysit her baby by

> just bringing down the baby monitor as it still

> had frequency. I said that I couldn't do that and

> babysat in the usual way by sitting in her lounge.

> Had there been a fire I would not have known

> anything about it for some time being the flat

> below. I have know several people who do this!!

[Pickle]

All the theory and well meaning opinion in the world does not compare to the day when you have your own children who you are dealing with 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Would be interesting to revisit this thread in the future Zeban, if and when you have kids :)

Would be interested to hear what's happened today from the OP too... please update us.

[Ruth_Baldock]

Zeban, there is a gargantuan difference in having child psycholgy qualifications and actually having children. I have both too and the latter is a much tougher learning curve.

Obviously.

[helena handbasket]

Agree with above. Twenty years in child psychology and education and yet every day with my son I realize how little I really know. Actually being a parent has made me better professionally.

[cuppa tea]

Moos Wrote:

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> Oops, just caught zeban's post. Hopefully my last

> explains. cuppa tea and others, thanks for your

> responses - food for thought. Ctea, how old is

> your LO? My boy just 4. The baby is of course

> just a baby and not able to be either naughty or

> good!

He's 4 funnily enough! Trickiest age so far eh?!

Also wanted to add that what I am finding, (and what I am very bad at), is making sure my own needs are met so I can then have more patience and have my head in the right place for when I am with my children. Can't underestimate the power of this. This is the trouble with parenting manuals/gurus....it stresses me out and makes me neurotic!! Go for a massage and make sure you never run out of wine and the other stuff will sort itself out ;)

[cuppa tea]

helena handbasket Wrote:

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> Agree with above. Twenty years in child

> psychology and education and yet every day with my

> son I realize how little I really know. Actually

> being a parent has made me better professionally.

And there's me feeling like I need a degree in child psychology to be a parent....relieved that it makes no difference what so ever!! I have a friend who works in child protection who has fairly recently had a baby and she is finding her job much much tougher than before. I guess your sensitivies change forever.

[zeban]

Oh god yes I know. I'm sure there are so many things you say you wouldn't do when you have a baby and then it isn't so clear when you have them.

But I still feel on this particular issue it doesn't sit well with me, along with the OP and some other forumites who do have children. And no some people don't have the emotional capacity to bring up children- they're usually the people that haven't thought it through much or use having children as some kind of trophy but actually resent that their life has to change so much and that's it's not all about them.

[cuppa tea]

mockney piers Wrote:

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> I can't see anything wrong with a naughty step,

> especially with young ones with limited linguistic

> skills.

> you have to let kids feel that they've done

> something wrong, and sitting them on your knee

> saying 'well timmy you need to understand that

> there are some things we just don't do' is not

> going to achieve much when all they'll understand

> is 'mwa Timmy mwa mwa mwa mwa mwa mwa mwa'.

> I guess the older they get the more you can move

> to reasoning from conditioning.

>

> We all muddle through lets face it, but my dad had

> a (rare) bit of good advice on this.

> "Whatever disciplinary measures you take, never

> withdraw love from them, that's the most damaging

> thing you can do."

>

> Moos struck me as someone wanting constructive

> criticism rather than just criticism.

But from a young kids perspective they often don't think they have done anything wrong, they are just trying their best they can to get their needs met. It's just not always that obvious what their needs are by from their immediate behaviour.

Hmmmm "withdrawing love" is very ambiguous. Time outs purposely use the fact that you are withdrawing your attention/time from them. Don't kids experience their parents time and attention as love? You don't have to teach kids right from wrong. They would learn it for themselves by being in a loving family...just like they learnt to walk and talk, by being around people who walk and talk.

[helena handbasket]

Cuppa tea sometimes I honestly think maybe ignorance is bliss.

There are days when I have a thousand development theories playing out in my head and it just becomes noise.

The only trick I've learned is this: look at extreme parenting philosophies from either side, and the rational approach will lie somewhere in the middle. Like life.

There have been very few "absolutes" in developmental theory because it's really difficult to control for variables in each family (and things like personality and temperament). Plus some of the most famous theorists have had crazy small sampling sizes. That's just bad science.

Most of what we know is based on educated guesses and small trials. It's hard to find huge groups of parents willing to sign their children over for research, even though there is a "Patient's Bill of Rights" I understand why people aren't lining up to do it. I think that's why so many parenting books are written by nannies and not psychologists. I actually think that makes more sense to tell you the truth. In my experience theory does not go easily into practice.

I once had a professor who told us that if we believe any psychological theory as absolute than we should re-think our ability to objectively assess.

[helena handbasket]

Wow. So how does one judge a person's emotional capacity to have children?

And who are the righteous people amongst us who decide that?

edited for god awful writing while multitasking

zeban Wrote:

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> Oh god yes I know. I'm sure there are so many

> things you say you wouldn't do when you have a

> baby and then it isn't so clear when you have

> them.

>

> But I still feel on this particular issue it

> doesn't sit well with me, along with the OP and

> some other forumites who do have children. And no

> some people don't have the emotional capacity to

> bring up children- they're usually the people that

> haven't thought it through much or use having

> children as some kind of trophy but actually

> resent that their life has to change so much and

> that's it's not all about them.

[cuppa tea]

"I once had a professor who told us that if we believe any psychological theory as absolute than we should re-think our ability to objectively assess."

The problem with this theory, translated over to parenting, is that doubting and questioning your 'methods' as a parent is a very painful and sometimes crippling process. But then we have to just get on with looking after our kids, there is no alternative!

[helena handbasket]

Yeah I know. It's crazy hard. But you have to remember that a theory is just that....... a theory. Until it gets proven as fact. Which in child development is rare.

[Otta]

To be fair to zeban, you might not know what having kids is like until you have them, but equally, if something doesn't sit right with you, it's unlikely that having kids will change that.

[cuppa tea]

helena handbasket Wrote:

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> Wow. So how does one judge a person's emotional

> capacity to have children?

>

> And who are the righteous people amongst us who

> decide that?

>

I can remember thinking, pre-kids, "how can anyone smack their children, that's hideous/awful/unforgivable".

It's only until I had them myself that I understand how people get to that point. I've not done it, but I can now comprehend it. You sometimes get pushed beyond all reasonable limits. So that's a good lesson for me; to be less judgemental, less self-righteous...it took having children to do it though. For me at least.

[helena handbasket]

Totally true cuppa tea.

Personally I'm a big fan of the "good enough parenting" school of thought. It just makes sense and moves away from the guilt inducing extreme theorizing I read so much of. If you google it there's lots of refreshing, reasonable advice.

I especially like the mother "as a model of a good, imperfect person".

[zeban]

I know. My Mum pinched me once and left a mark on my arm. She's even put a bowl of porridge on top of my sisters head because she was so frustrated that she hadn't eaten it, played with it, and let it go cold and then complained it was cold. But she never psychologically played with our emotions. We always knew we were loved and we always knew what was right from wrong.

So no, I didn't say I would never smack a child. But I'd never mess around with their emotions and do what I can not to damage them long term. And that I'll stick to.

You can decide yourself if you're emotionally ready to have children. The problem is some people don't even think about this.

[helena handbasket]

I honestly don't think there's any way of knowing. Or being ready.:))

[cuppa tea]

zeban Wrote:

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> I know. My Mum pinched me once and left a mark on

> my arm. She's even put a bowl of porridge on top

> of my sisters head because she was so frustrated

> that she hadn't eaten it, played with it, and let

> it go cold and then complained it was cold. But

> she never psychologically played with our

> emotions. We always knew we were loved and we

> always knew what was right from wrong.

>

> So no, I didn't say I would never smack a child.

> But I'd never mess around with their emotions and

> do what I can not to damage them long term. And

> that I'll stick to.

>

> You can decide yourself if you're emotionally

> ready to have children. The problem is some people

> don't even think about this.

The problem is the people who are least emotionally ready to have kids are the ones who are least likely to realise this!

'Messing around with people's emotions'? Have you ever accidentally hurt someone's feelings? I am guessing yes, even if they haven't brought it to your attention. It's human nature, unfortunately. The key is to learn when you are wrong and how to apologise, even to your children....especially to your children!

[Ruth_Baldock]

HH, never a truer word spoken. The same as there never being a "right" time to have children.