Child Abuse???? advice please

[red1]

Advice please Dulwich.

My brother in law lives next door to a middle-class typical new Dulwich couple who have 2 toddlers. My fianc? came home today after visiting and said the mother had locked the toddlers out in the garden after they had been naughty then the father came home from work and did the same thing again for at least 10 minutes a time, while the kids are screaming and crying and saying daddy I love you please let me back in.

Now I would love to just call social services and have them deal with it, but I have a feeling it will be ignored? Should I go over and say something to the parents?

[edanna]

That's a tricky one red1. I wouldn't do something like that to discipline my children but I'm a total softy. Unless you really think the kids are being harmed I don't think you should get involved. But you can keep an eye on things.

[redjam]

Very tricky. There have certainly been times when I've given time outs to my kids and they've screamed blue murder for a good ten minutes, and I've always had a slight paranoia someone would call social services on me! OK, the actual time out is never as long as ten minutes and they have to stay in their bedroom and not in the garden, but still - what you've described could just be within the normal realms of discipline as opposed to abuse.

I'd so go very carefully before you steam in on this - it's a very big accusation to say that someone is abusing their kids so you do have to be pretty sure of your grounds.

Interested to know what other people think.

[red1]

Hi edanna

My fianc? said they are not even being told to stay outside for a while, ?just slung out there and left?.

I think maybe I should go hang out in the garden and listen in for myself, but I?ll probably end up vaulting the fence?poor babies!!

they say it happens all the time :(

[Pickle]

I agree with Redjam. On occasions, if my kids are really pushing the boundaries, I will put them out in the garden to allow both them and me to blow off some steam (or their bedrooms if it's raining/snowing, I'm not THAT mean!). They will often scream and shout much more than is justified in the situation. I'm not sure I would leave them for 10 minutes, but at the end of the day I guess 10 minutes in the garden (which I assume in this case is enclosed and safe) isn't going to harm a child.

[red1]

Don?t get me wrong, I know all children need good discipline, I have to say I don?t totally disagree with the odd bottom smack?but?? surely this is just lazy parenting which is giving the babies abandonment issues?

[ClaireClaire]

I agree with the above

That said, if you are concerned, I think there is nothing wrong with approaching them in a friendly way and asking if everything is ok. As a second step, you could say that the noise bothers you a bit and could they keep it down. If, after those actions, there is no change and you are still concerned, perhaps at that point it would be appropriate to tell them that you are not comfortable hearing the children cry so much and drop a hint at social services.

[Pickle]

It doesn't sound like they are babies though, if they can say "I love you Daddy, let me back in". I guess some people would consider it a much preferable way of disciplining than smacking.

But without knowing more about the situation you can't really judge.

[zeban]

I think it sounds awful and I am wondering if everyone is being a bit more forgiving because the OP said it was a middle class couple?

[Otta]

I?m not sure I'd think this worthy of a call to social services at this stage, but I'm pretty sure a child protection team wouldn't ignore any call.

[zeban]

I'm with Otta

[Ruth_Baldock]

Without wanting to turn this into a massive debate, there is a big difference between what you consider "lazy parenting" and actual abuse- I think smacking kids is actually classed as abuse now, but may be way off mark.

FWIW, I have definitely put my screaming toddler in his room for 5mins or so to hash out his tantrum whilst I get my head together- we don't have a garden but I'd probably release him there too for a scream/run around if I could.

[red1]

Okay so my fianc? has just told me it?s not just when they are being naughty, it?s when they start making too much noise, the parents scream shut up, shut up and throw them out the back door.

I?m definitely going over to investigate tomorrow, I?ll be camped in the back garden!

And I do think 2 ish is still babies!!!!

[Ruth_Baldock]

However if you are going to approach them, I'd go with claireclaire's suggestion and

mention the noise issue rather than anything else as I think it's the angle which is least accusatory...

[zeban]

Definitely investigate. Poor little bubs. Some people really shouldn't have children.

[Otta]

Go in to the garden and give the kids treats over the fence. That'll piss the parents off!

[red1]

Otta Wrote:

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> Go in to the garden and give the kids treats over

> the fence. That'll piss the parents off!

thats the spirit !!!!

[Ruth_Baldock]

LOL Otta, my Mum did that once! Next doors kids throwing a fit in the garden, Mum couldn't stand the noise and asked Kid why he was shouting, he said "My mum won't give me a chocolate biscuit" so my mum gave him three Jaffa cakes. Nice. Neighbours still not fans of her, but makes me laugh still.

[Belle]

Oh come on Zeban, we don't know all the facts here. I don't think it's anything to do with the couple being described as 'middle class', I think it's more that quite a few of us on here are parents who use 'time out' as a reasonable disclipinary measure. Of course what's happening here may be far removed from that - but we don't know either way. there's a danger (no disrespect to the OP here) in things getting distorted when they are 2nd or 3rd hand in the telling. For instance, my son at the moment has a favourite game of pretending he is 'stuck' somewhere, and I can envisage this happening in the garden and him screaming 'help, help' which is part of the game. This could easily be misinterpreted. This is an extremely sensitive and difficult issue, I think is all people are saying - nobody is saying let's ignore it, more, proceed with caution.

I think absolutely mention it - poss under the guise as a noise complaint - and their reaction might be quite telling, and shd inform the next step.

[red1]

Belle Wrote:

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> Oh come on Zeban, we don't know all the facts

> here. I don't think it's anything to do with the

> couple being described as 'middle class', I think

> it's more that quite a few of us on here are

> parents who use 'time out' as a reasonable

> disclipinary measure. Of course what's happening

> here may be far removed from that - but we don't

> know either way. there's a danger (no disrespect

> to the OP here) in things getting distorted when

> they are 2nd or 3rd hand in the telling. For

> instance, my son at the moment has a favourite

> game of pretending he is 'stuck' somewhere, and I

> can envisage this happening in the garden and him

> screaming 'help, help' which is part of the game.

> This could easily be misinterpreted. This is an

> extremely sensitive and difficult issue, I think

> is all people are saying - nobody is saying let's

> ignore it, more, proceed with caution.

>

> I think absolutely mention it - poss under the

> guise as a noise complaint - and their reaction

> might be quite telling, and shd inform the next

> step.

I have to say if my brother in law and his male housemate (both in their 30?s with no children of there own) felt the need to say to my fianc? ?you should see the what the neighbours are doing to their kids? and for my fianc? to come home and tell me, the first thing about what he heard and saw, I?m guessing my garden investigations are going to shock me too.

I will let you all know tomorrow

[Otta]

Belle Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Oh come on Zeban, we don't know all the facts

> here. I don't think it's anything to do with the

> couple being described as 'middle class', I think

> it's more that quite a few of us on here are

> parents who use 'time out' as a reasonable

> disclipinary measure.

I have to admit that I am surprised how many people have said they use this technique as a form of discipline.

My gut instinct is that it's a cruel thing to do. I mentioned this to my wife, and she agrees with me, but did tell me that there are books that advocate it.

I guess it depends on the age of the child, and whether they understand the reasons for it or not.

Just doing it because you're fed up with the noise is just absolutely disgusting though IMO.

[zeban]

Thank you Otta. That's what I meant and I disagree with it whole heartedly. Trust me I'm no stranger to frustrated Mum's but that's cruel.

[Pickle]

Surely "time out" type discipline is a very common thing? I've never read a book on discipline in my life (and can't stand the supernanny woman so never watch it), but in situations where one of my children is kicking off to me it seems like a very logical way of dealing with it. Naughty step, time in their bedroom etc, most parents I know use variations on these techniques (albeit with over 2's).

In my son's school nursery they have a seat which is used for time out purposes, placed away from the other children (kids are age 3 and up).

[vesti]

Get your brother in law to call the NSPCC direct and explain to them himself what is going on. They will provide helpful, professional advice based on vast experience and training. None of this chuck em a jaffa cake/complain about the noise (which may make things worse)/how long to leave a baby/not baby out in the garden stuff.

"Call the NSPCC Helpline on 0808 800 5000 if you are worried about a child".

Or try

Southwark -

"If you are concerned about a child who may be suffering harm please contact our referral and assessment team."

Tel: 020 7525 1921

Out of hours: 020 7525 5000

[email protected]

Get the person actually witnessing the incident to actually speak to people with experience and expertise.

Much better I would have thought than a number of well meaning non-experts on a forum.

[Otta]

Yeah, "go to your room" has been used for as long as families have lived in houses where the kids have their own rom.

I don't really dig the naughty step thing, but that's just me.

I don't know, just the thought of putting them out in the garden, and locking them out there doesn't sit well with me. I think I'd actually find it worse than having them indoors, as I just couldn't be "strong" and listen to them crying to come in.

I guess with a kid of around 5, who could understand exactly why you were doing it for a few minutes, it's cool, but younger than that, I'm not convinced they'll really get it.

Please don't take this as me calling anyone who uses this technique a cruel parent. I'm just saying that it wouldn't be for me.

I will say again though, that if people just do it for a bit of peace, then they ARE nasty cruel parents, and should never have had kids. And I'll stand by thet.