Abortion debate

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

With the abortion law in the news at the moment, I just wanted to say that it always amazes me that the staunchest pro-life (anti-choice) advocates in the US are all in favour of the death penalty.

It's a paradox that appears to completely fly over their heads.

My personal views are; any woman in any circumstances should not be forced to have a child she does not want, and should be allowed to get a termination on demand as early or as late as she wants. A baby is not a seperate entity until it is expelled from the mother and takes it's first breath.

I am also against the death penalty. Thou shalt not kill, unless it's on behalf of the state, doesn't cut it with me.

[mockney piers]

US religious right are bonkers shock

Next they'll be voting for a president who gives away whatever pathetically small leg-ups they get in life to big business interests.

Oh wait....

[barrymarshall]

I second what you say, CWALD. It's a step in the right direction, the Commons committee recommending that only one doctor need sign off a termination. I think the current system smacks of the old prejudice that a woman cannot possible know what is in her own interests and needs professionals to decide for her. It was also designed to keep control of reproduction in the hands of the medical establishment, which then (1960s) as now was/is overwhelmingly male.

BTW, I am not against capital punishment. I don't believe that the state has the right to kill, but there are sometimes some people who do such unspeakable things they don't deserve a second chance. After all, their victims didn't get another go. Though this is a whole other debate.

[Maurice]

Believe it or not I am pro-choice but having guided a few precious souls through the process, I can tell you it isn't a joyous occasion. Quite the contrary. I believe a woman should be offered a full picture of what is involved - it isn't the same as having a tooth pulled and life returns to normal the following morning. I wish abortion was never necessary in the first place. It can really destroy a young woman on so many levels. That said, I remain resolutely pro-choice.

It is the same for the death penalty. There is no logic in killing to punish people for killing. That said, there are some horrible crimes where if I were in the shoes of victims left behind, I would want revenge and the death penalty might seem appropriate. In those cases, I do not support killing the individual responsible - but I am not sympathetic to providing them with anything more than a lifetime of pure misery.

[snorky]

The "believers" who lurk outside the marie Stopes in brixton, eyes closed, chanting prayers for hours at a time would probabaly have an opinion on this subject

The US R/W are utterly insane and make the Catholic church look positively liberal by comparison

[Nero]

Hmm. All in all, I am against abortion. The idea of one human delving into another human's body to kill and then remove another human being in-the-making is truly disgusting. Nero

[barrymarshall]

No-one said abortion was pleasant, Nero. There are solid social and historical reasons why women need to have the option to have a safe termination if they need one. I would also go further and argue that it should also be completely free and on demand. Let's not have a return to the backstreets.

[mockney piers]

Nice to see a well reasoned contribution there Nero.

I'm ambivalent. Banning it doesn't deal with it and leads to real horrors, so it's important to have the choice; but as maurice points out, it's not simple thing to deal with even with institutional support.

But my personal instincts feel it's wrong; I'm not religious nor believe in moral absolutes, so it's not a moral stance, but I feel bad if I even squash a spider.

I know under no circumstances would I ever or have ever asked someone to do it, and would probably have been deeply upset if they had, but would understand their ultimate right to decide.

Fortunately have never been put (err ... or put anyone) in that position.

[Maurice]

I think we can all agree on the absolute disgrace of teenage pregnancy - Southwark is horrific. Surely we can do more to prevent unwanted pregnancies before they occur. Further, and I know for fact this is not an urban myth, teens that want a baby accessory complete with their own council flat really anger me. I don't know the solution, but it really angers me.

[gerry]

I would just like to add that as a parent its hard to make a rational decision about abortion. A baby can survive sometimes at 20 weeks...could anyone actually say its ok to kill it??? I am grateful women have the right to abortion, thank God, but up to a point. I don't feel they should wait around for 6 months making a decision weather to keep it or not...if they are that unsure, its best they give it up for adoption rather than kill it off.

[Maurice]

Agreed. If viable outside of the mother's womb, it should not be aborted. Those who think otherwise undermine their anti death penalty argument.

[barrymarshall]

gerry Wrote:

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A

> baby can survive sometimes at 20 weeks...

Hi Gerry,

I think it needs to be put in context. Before the House of Commons Select Committee last week, Health Minister Dawn Primarolo presented figures saying that 89% of abortions - ie the overwhelming majority - were carried out before 13 weeks and 68% before 10 weeks. The viability of babies born at 21 weeks was 0%, at 22 weeks 1% and 23 weeks 11%. So we are talking about very small numbers here. Not only that, but babies born so early often develop serious health problems and/or learning difficulties later in life. Our science is often not as advanced as we might think.

Women who have abortions at a 20+ week stage often do so for unforeseen reasons. I don't think they just sit around and get a termination on a whim because they don't feel like having a baby.

[gerry]

I agree we are talking about small numbers, but is it then fair to abort a child after 22 weeks because it has a disease or is mishaped in some way.....isn't that the same as a death sentence? Its not perfect, let's kill it. If a baby is not wanted, then make the decision early. After that, give it up for adoption to a parent who wants to raise it.

[mockney piers]

"abortions at a 20+ week stage often do so for unforeseen reasons"

absolutely BM, unforseen and usually medical reasons; all very tricky and upsetting for those involved.

None of the current debate in parliament, should be framed against a backdrop of designer/too posh to push/council estate/single mums, or any of the usual clutter* that gets in the way of reasoned discourse.

*such as "Its not perfect, let's kill it."

Rather trivialising the debate there aren't you gerry? I think we're talking with a sever degenerative disorder that will condemn a baby to some brief weeks of suffering before dying, not a limp or a genetic predisposition to asthma.

[Fear 'n boozin]

My feeling is that abortion should be allowed. And that it should be allowed with the minimum of fuss, so agree with the Commons Committee's report. I imagine one would have made the decision to terminate after a lot of thought, so don't see why two Dr's need to agree to an abortion before it's allowed. Also, (I think), technically you're not allowed to have an abortion in the UK just because you got drunk and don't want a child....though I'm not so sure how well this works in practice.

From my experience (which is pretty limited - am in the same boat as MP), having an abortion can have serious affects on the mother. So rather than worrying about whether it's morally acceptable to have an abortion, I'd much rather see a system of support for those that choose to have a termination. Something I feel is lacking now. They get depressed. They get pumped with drugs. Lucky them.

Rather loath the moral question. Illegalising abortion, or making it harder to get one wont prevent it from happening, it will just worsen the lot of those that decide they cannot cope having a child. Criminalising people needlessly. And am annoyed that the Beebs pages on abortion are on their religious pages - as an atheist I really don't see what religions got to do with it. http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/ethics/abortion/

On the death penalty (I know it's a tad off topic). Am against it, but was at Auschwitz recently and saw the gallows where Rudolph Hoess was hung.....it go us into a lengthy debate as to whether this was right or not. We didn't really resolve it.

[gerry]

Mockney

Medicine is an art and not a science. Doctors do get things wrong and babies who never had a chance of surviving did so. How can anyone be 100% sure of a baby's condition and how it will respond to treatment if given the chance? We don't have the right to take a life because its not perfect. Believe me, I do not trivialise abortion on any level.

[mockney piers]

Fair enough gerry, indeed the future is unknowable but I doubt any decision of this ilk late on in pregnancy is made lightly.

[Annasfield]

It's interesting (and I'm assuming here) that all that have responded to this thread are male. I have not been in this situation and would not know how I would deal with it until I had to.

I don't see how anybody can judge for or against a termination, without being in the position themselves. If any of my friends or family found themselves in that position I would support them, whatever their decision.

[Maurice]

Ah that ol' chestnut. While I support a woman's right to choose and listen extra carefully to their views, I do believe males have the right to voice an opinion, which should be given some weight.

[shaman]

Just would like to say over the many years as a therapist overwhelmingly the decision to have a most lasting effect on them emotionally. I strongly support the right to choose abortion quickly without to much redtape so that they do not reach 20 weeks stage, secondly there is not suffient emotional support to help make an informed decision and to for them cope with their choice. The trauma and guilt never leaves them and little is done to recognise this in other societies rituals are used to help overcome the emotional distres that such difficult decision have on the mother and also the father when involved.

[Annasfield]

I didn't mean in that way, I was just surprised to see that only fellas had replied. Of course men have the right to an opinion on this matter. I would never disagree with that.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Funnily enough Annasfield I was thinking the same thing (about it being mostly male posters in here) So I have held back

So far it has been a fairly sensible debate (compared to any other forum where the topic comes up)

As with Mockney and Fear, I've not been in the situation but have had plenty of dicussions around it.

I'm glad it exists (see anywhere where it doesn't exist to see what the grizzly alternative is ) but I can't see how there isn't a moral dimension to it. Otherwise, like many mammals, we could wait until giving birth, have a look and decide whether we were going to keep it or do away with it then.

[barrymarshall]

Annasfield Wrote:

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> It's interesting (and I'm assuming here) that all

> that have responded to this thread are male.

>

I thought that too - usually blokes are the most vociferous anti-abortionists. It reinforces what I think about it being about controlling wimmin.

But I say, and have always said, if it were men who got pregnant we wouldn't even have this discussion because abortion would have been legal since the beginning of time.

[mikeb]

Good - a nice uncontroversial subject as my first foray into the Lounge. I hope I don't offend anyone.

Fear 'n boozin - I'm not sure you can ignore the "moral question". If you do then I think you abdicate your right to participate in any discussion of whether abortion is acceptable or wrong. And I don't think you really do meant to, since you go on to talk about "needless" criminality, which implies some balance of the impact to someone from being criminalised someone vs the potential benefit to others (or indeed possibly to themselves) from doing so.

And CWALD, I also can't agree that "A baby is not a seperate entity until it is expelled from the mother and takes its first breath". An unborn baby at 8 3/4 months (whoops, just called it a "baby") seems about as active and sentient as a one day old baby, except that you can't hear it cry and you feed it in a different way.

This doesn't mean that conception is obviously the place to start either (although it's possibly the only logical alternative) since it's very hard to have any feelings for a collection of subdividing cells.

I'm not a Catholic but the church has at least thought about making their position on this consistent with the related issues about the morality of casual sex, capital punishment, contraception, mind / body distinction etc. There's plenty in the catechism which is at best debatable but those Jesuits certainly could argue ...

(edit) just seen the comment above - I'm male too. What's the male / female split in the Lounge normally?

[*Bob*]

mikeb Wrote:

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> (edit) just seen the comment above - I'm male too.

> What's the male / female split in the Lounge

> normally?

Normally more female than male, I'd day. Mostly because a quarter of SE22 has a bun in the oven, and you can't watch Rikki Lake all day long.