Idiots on the road!

[apbremer]

I am continually amazed by the plethora of Earth Mums and Dads in DV wobbling through heavy traffic on bikes with their small children stuck in front (or behind) in flimsy, home made plastic carts, presumably doing their misguided little bit to save the planet. I have even seen one tiny child perched on his father's crossbar, without even a helmet! "Elf and Safety" should surely take an interest, or even the schools??

[rendelharris]

I am continually amazed by the plethora of arrogant prats in vehicles far too large for their needs stinking up Dulwich with carcinogenic fumes in order to make unnecessary journeys and putting pedestrians and cyclists, who are probably actually just going about their daily business rather than trying to be "Earth Mums and Dads," in danger. Takes all sorts.

[dbboy]

Add over sized child buggies to the list, that the parents expect you to get out of the way of, plus getting on and off buses bumping into people, but it's never their fault of course arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Sue]

Live and let live?

Each to their own etc?

[Jules-and-Boo]

I presume you don't actually HAVE to travel each day?

I had a woman almost sitting on my lap, such was her assumption that she could take up half of my seat as well and that I had failed to make enough space for her and needed some kind of punishment to teach me the error of my ways.

I'm just thankful that I am not her and do not have to live with her attitude.

And I hope it made her feel empowered, because I can't imagine what else she got out of it (although I did smell rather divine and maybe she thought it would rub off)

[dbboy]

yes that is fine, but don't knock into me because they are careless, thoughtless and self obsessed.

And oh of course those that sit next to you on the bus, but they can't judge distance so sit virtually shoulder to shoulder, have they never heard of "personal space", don't get me started, can probably reel of a list of things I find annoying....

[uncleglen]

I wonder how many people trying to save the planet wipe out all that hard work with one aeroplane trip to Disneyland?

http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/shrink-your-travel-footprint

[bobbsy]

Or perhaps they are trying to balance out that trip to Disneyland by making the effort in daily life...

[Champ]

dbboy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Add over sized child buggies to the list, that the

> parents expect you to get out of the way of, plus

> getting on and off buses bumping into people, but

> it's never their fault of course

> arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I don't have much sympathy for you I'm afraid, is it really a problem to sometimes stand to the side to let a parent pushing a buggy past? I'm sure there are occasions said parents would wait for you to walk past first on narrow footpaths, at least this is my experience. Do you also have this issue with people in wheelchairs?

What I do find irritating are those pedestrians to enthralled by their phones and not looking where they are walking. Accidents waiting to happen.

[Jules-and-Boo]

I think ddboy's key word is 'expectation' - ownership of right of way.

I don't think anyone minds buggies in general, but that's not the point being made.

[DulwichLondoner]

The first thing you learn as a motorcyclist, which, AFAIK, you tend not to learn as a car driver, is to ride defensively, which means riding assuming there are only 3 categories of road users:

1) those who want to kill you

2) those who want to kill themselves

3) those who want to kill themselves and you

And by road users I mean everyone, pedestrians cyclists other motorcyclists car drivers cabbies lorry drivers bus drivers etc.

Yes, I know, it sounds self-righteous, pompous and arrogant, but riding keeping this basic principle in mind ensures Darwinian self-preservation. It should be applied to driving any kind of vehicle.

If I am about to turn left and there is a bicycle behind me, I signal with my end to make sure the genius has seen me and doesn't try to undertake me the moment I slow down to turn left (a constant occurrence).

If I see pedestrians running towards a crossing, I assume they'll ignore the red man and jump in the middle of the road.

If I see a motorcyclist filtering like crazy, I let him overtake and do his thing without the risk of hitting or involving me.

If I am riding along a residential road with lots of cars parked on both sides of the streets, I always assume there will be a child or an idiot adult ready to jump from a parked vehicle without looking. Same if I am overtaking a bus which has just pulled over to let people get off.

Etc etc etc.

[andynic]

"If I am about to turn left and there is a bicycle behind me, I signal with my end to make sure the genius has seen me and doesn't try to undertake me the moment I slow down to turn left (a constant occurrence). "

Really good of you to indicate when you're turning left. There's probably even something in the Highway Code about it.

From a cyclist's point of view you wouldn't believe the number of car drivers who don't bother, or who indicate once they're half way round the corner.

[rendelharris]

DulwichLondoner Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If I am about to turn left and there is a bicycle

> behind me, I signal with my end to make sure the

> genius has seen me and doesn't try to undertake me

> the moment I slow down to turn left (a constant

> occurrence).

Leaving aside the alarming vision of you signalling with your end (!), when I was motorcycling if I was turning left and there was a cyclist near enough to become a potential hazard as I slowed for the corner I would slow well beforehand and let them go ahead, making my turn behind them and obviating the risk of turning into them. It doesn't take much time and eliminates the risk.

[dbboy]

Wheelchairs are fine, I was in one for a while and on a walking frame until I was able to become mobile and independent again, so I totally understand what having a mobility problem is like.

[Calsug]

We?re owners of a larger than expected buggy which I have nicknamed ?the tank? that said I will always pull to one side to let people go past or thank those who let me past - you just have to be mindful one way or another

I have to admit some parents are totally oblivious either stopping a few abreast in the street to have a little chat or I have been steamrollered on a number of occasions and it does wind me up as well!

Champ Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> dbboy Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Add over sized child buggies to the list, that

> the

> > parents expect you to get out of the way of,

> plus

> > getting on and off buses bumping into people,

> but

> > it's never their fault of course

> > arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

>

> I don't have much sympathy for you I'm afraid, is

> it really a problem to sometimes stand to the side

> to let a parent pushing a buggy past? I'm sure

> there are occasions said parents would wait for

> you to walk past first on narrow footpaths, at

> least this is my experience. Do you also have this

> issue with people in wheelchairs?

>

> What I do find irritating are those pedestrians to

> enthralled by their phones and not looking where

> they are walking. Accidents waiting to happen.

[ruffers]

andynic Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "If I am about to turn left and there is a bicycle

> behind me, I signal with my end to make sure the

> genius has seen me and doesn't try to undertake me

> the moment I slow down to turn left (a constant

> occurrence). "

>

> Really good of you to indicate when you're turning

> left. There's probably even something in the

> Highway Code about it.

> From a cyclist's point of view you wouldn't

> believe the number of car drivers who don't

> bother, or who indicate once they're half way

> round the corner.

I'm taking this to mean andynic signals with his hand, as well a with his indicators, which is what I do on my motorbike also.

If we want to start on road usersnot signalli

[DulwichLondoner]

andynic Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Really good of you to indicate when you're turning

> left. There's probably even something in the

> Highway Code about it.

Please forgive my typo. Clearly I meant that, in addition to signalling with the indicator, which of course I always do, I often signal with my *hand* because otherwise cyclists tend to ignore the signaling light.

I am not aware of any obligation to signal with indicator AND hands.

I would however suspect that accelerating furiously to undertake a vehicle which has clearly indicated its intention to turn left would most likely be classified as dangerous driving or dangerous cycling. Not to mention utterly stupid when the cyclist has more chances of hurting himself than me.

> From a cyclist's point of view you wouldn't

> believe the number of car drivers who don't

> bother, or who indicate once they're half way

> round the corner.

Oh, no, I do, I totally do, hence my comment about all road users, of all categories, including motorcyclists.

[uncleglen]

I met someone who didn't use indicators- their excuse was that if you let other drivers know what you are going to do they will cut you up etc.....

As for the bit of road between Kings on the Rye and Rye Lane there are bikes and cycles everywhere- I just shut my eyes and hope for the best!

[micromacromonkey]

Us and Them.

Why don't we have a standard forum template for this type of anger, then we can all save ourselves a lot of typing time?

tribe 1 member: "Typical cyclist/pedestrian/driver/motorcyclist blah blah"

tribe 2 member: "Just what I expect from a cyclist/pedestrian/driver/motorcyclist blah blah"

etc

Everyone is guilty of the same crime, which is a temporary lack of empathy (well perhaps not so temporary in some cases but you get my drift). You'd be hard pressed to find a cyclist who wasn't a car driver, and even more so to find one who had mysteriously lost the use of his legs when required to walk. Feeling a temporary belonging to a certain 'in group', and failing to see the other group's point of view is just human nature; we'd all do well to realise that if everyone just tried to get along and consider the situation of other road users the roads would be a lot safer for all. I even got agreement on this point the other day from a taxi driver (sorry temporary lack of empathy lead to sarcasm there).

[DulwichLondoner]

micromacromonkey Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Us and Them.

>

> Why don't we have a standard forum template for

> this type of anger, then we can all save ourselves

> a lot of typing time?

I agree. Indeed, this is why the point of my post was not to present one category as inferior or superior, but to convey that all categories are (almost) equally guilty.

My gripe with cyclists is that:

1) without a plate, they can easily get away without getting caught, unless they are stopped/fall/etc. No realistically feasible alternative here.

2) no training is required. No, having a car licence isn't enough, just like it isn't enough to ride a motorcycle. A 'pushbike licence' isn't realistic, but at least some compulsory training in schools might go a long way. Sure, there are car drivers who behave like idiots despite their 'training', but, still...

I know the forum is full of sensible cyclists who always behave responsibly and don't need any kind of training, but unfortunately London roads are full of way less sensible cyclists.

[Loz]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I am continually amazed by the plethora of

> arrogant prats in vehicles far too large for their

> needs stinking up Dulwich with carcinogenic fumes

> in order to make unnecessary journeys and putting

> pedestrians and cyclists, who are probably

> actually just going about their daily business

> rather than trying to be "Earth Mums and Dads," in

> danger. Takes all sorts.

Good lord - you'd whine like a spoilt child if a cycle/car reverse of the first two posts happened on a thread started by a cyclist.

Hypocrite.

[rendelharris]

(ETA in reply to DL - Loz's usual positive contribution neither requires nor deserves answering)

Can we have a trade-off? I'd be quite happy to undertake a CBT for cyclists if it was also made a compulsory part of the driving test to spend half a day cycling with an instructor. Programmes which have taken HGV drivers out on bicycles have had notably good effects, and on a personal level I've noticed that since my wife became a motorcyclist and then a cyclist her observation of and care towards two wheeled road users when driving her car (which was pretty good to start with, to be honest) has definitely improved.

[DulwichLondoner]

@rendelharris, in theory I couldn't agree more! For once, ha ha ha :)

In theory it would be great if HGV and car drivers were forced to spend some time on two wheels, motorised and non-.

Practically, I don't see this happening, but at least introducing something in the exam to 'educate' them on how different the perspective is when you're on 2 wheels would be very very useful.

[malumbu]

DulwichLondoner Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The first thing you learn as a motorcyclist,

> which, AFAIK, you tend not to learn as a car

> driver, is to ride defensively, which means riding

> assuming there are only 3 categories of road

> users:

> 1) those who want to kill you

> 2) those who want to kill themselves

> 3) those who want to kill themselves and you

>

> And by road users I mean everyone, pedestrians

> cyclists other motorcyclists car drivers cabbies

> lorry drivers bus drivers etc.

>

> Yes, I know, it sounds self-righteous, pompous and

> arrogant....

No it's not - good post and my motorcycle training has probably saved my life on other forms of road transport.

I wasn't planning to have a rant but I've just had my cluster of near misses on my unpowered two wheels. The guy in the white Prius today on Underhill particularly impressive. You come out a side road without looking, I have to cycle round you, and you still don't notice me. So I save you points on your license (driving without due care and attention) an insurance claim for damage to my bike and personal injury, a large increase in your premiums and in the worst case a custodial for manslaughter. You owe me big. So grateful for my motorcycle training....!

[ruffers]

I passed my bike test in 1989, and still remember and do a "lifesaver every time.

"They" have made it harder and harder over the years to get a bike license, with more and restrictions and compulsory training, but it's broadly worked.

I'd love to see cyclists offered similar levels of training.