Extension to ultra-low emission zone to north/south circulars

[rendelharris]

flocker spotter Wrote:

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> i do this to give you an opportunity to avoid

> making a fool of yourself. it is advice not an

> instruction.

How kind. How silly. How utterly up yourself.

[flocker spotter]

you have agency, i can only suggest that retracing the spats of yore will not end in satisfaction for anyone.

[sally buying]

Rendell Harris

I am sure you realised that housebound did not mean they could not get out but their freedom would be somewhat curtailed with out their own transport

[rendelharris]

sally buying Wrote:

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> Rendell Harris

>

> I am sure you realised that housebound did not

> mean they could not get out but their freedom

> would be somewhat curtailed with out their own

> transport

So you were using a term that didn't mean anything like what you meant? Why? By the way, re your post, it is pretty possible to carry shopping on the bus, I've done it lots of times.

[wulfhound]

It would be interesting to know what proportion of this 46% either (a) do not have a qualified driver living there, or (b) cannot afford to run a car of whatever vintage or ©live close to decent tubes, buses or trains so that they can get easily across London. Or if you wish to put it this way (d) don't live in SE London!

Ah, come on.. compared to 95% of the country, the public transport here is fantastic. I know lots of people who could have a car but choose not to, not because they can't afford to but the expense and hassle simply isn't worth it unless you want to drive once a fortnight or more. Anything less than that and it's an expensive liability.

[sally buying]

rendelharris Wrote:

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> sally buying Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Rendell Harris

> >

> > I am sure you realised that housebound did not

> > mean they could not get out but their freedom

> > would be somewhat curtailed with out their own

> > transport

>

> So you were using a term that didn't mean anything

> like what you meant? Why? By the way, re your

> post, it is pretty possible to carry shopping on

> the bus, I've done it lots of times.

As usual you can have the last word.

[rendelharris]

Why thank you, don't mind if I do. Just another rather amusing thing about your post, "their freedom would be curtailed with out [sic] their own transport" - rather revealing that you regard having a car as a "freedom" issue - the freedom to pollute and end 10,000 Londoner's lives prematurely each year? To be responsible for stunted growth and development in children? For some people freedom means clean air and safe streets, not the "right" to drive a polluting machine around.

[flocker spotter]

2+2=76768867868

[Applespider]

sally buying Wrote:

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> Ever tried carrying

> shopping on any London bus route?

Yes. I could afford a car but choose not to have one with the result that I?ve carried lots of shopping on bus, train, Tube, bike, wheeled case etc as appropriate over the last 2 decades. In the last year alone, I have brought back 100 litres of compost, bedding plants, a curtain rail, a laundry basket, a vacuum cleaner, a new set of tableware, bike tyres, paint pots and countless groceries. (Cue the generation game music - I missed the cuddly toy) Admittedly some of it might have been easier with a car but I?ve always thought that the price of running a car would pay for a few cab journeys if really necessary. And I prefer to at least give getting home without one a go.

More people shop several times a week rather than doing the weekly shop these days and it?s not hard to carry a couple of bags unless you are truly frail or incapacitated.

[DulwichLondoner]

A game changer is if you have kids Public transport in SE London sucks. Many stations are not accessible. If, on an infrequent bus route like the 37,all the buggy spaces are occupied, it may take you almost an hour to get from Dulwich to Brixton (been there, done that). If you have to visit people in different areas (eg coffee in Telegraph Hill then late lunch in Putney) and have kids then public transport becomes a nightmare.

Oh, and of course you cannot carry your own car seat in a Uber. I mean, you could, but what do you do with it once you reach your destination?

I find many anti car talibanes are young professionals with no children who live near a tube station and don't realise that everyone's circumstances are different.

[Sue]

Applespider Wrote:

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> sally buying Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Ever tried carrying

> > shopping on any London bus route?

>

> Yes. I could afford a car but choose not to have

> one with the result that I?ve carried lots of

> shopping on bus, train, Tube, bike, wheeled case

> etc as appropriate over the last 2 decades. In the

> last year alone, I have brought back 100 litres of

> compost, bedding plants, a curtain rail, a laundry

> basket, a vacuum cleaner, a new set of tableware,

> bike tyres, paint pots and countless groceries.

> (Cue the generation game music - I missed the

> cuddly toy) Admittedly some of it might have been

> easier with a car but I?ve always thought that the

> price of running a car would pay for a few cab

> journeys if really necessary. And I prefer to at

> least give getting home without one a go.

>

> More people shop several times a week rather than

> doing the weekly shop these days and it?s not hard

> to carry a couple of bags unless you are truly

> frail or incapacitated.

And you can use a shopping trolley, which I do frequently.

OK you have to get it on and off the bus, but unless it's extremely heavy that isn't too difficult.

Not ideal on a crowded bus, but better than struggling with bags.

[DulwichLondoner]

It depends on where you live. If you live by the Dulwich library you have plenty of frequent buses to get to the big Sainsbury on Dog Kennel Hill.

If you live, say, near the North Dulwich Station, your public transport options are much more limited.

[rendelharris]

DulwichLondoner Wrote:

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> It depends on where you live. If you live by the

> Dulwich library you have plenty of frequent buses

> to get to the big Sainsbury on Dog Kennel Hill.

>

> If you live, say, near the North Dulwich Station,

> your public transport options are much more

> limited.

Apart from four trains an hour to ED station, right by Sainsbury's, taking two minutes, the 42 bus every ten minutes, or (with the usual caveat about the elderly and disabled) it's less than three quarters of a mile, taking the average person about fifteen minutes to walk or two minutes on a bike! Not the best argument for "I have to use my car" I think!

[flocker spotter]

it come as a surprise to the enlightened on here, but cars are not always just a utility to go to the shops or nursery.

critical thinking & abstract conceptualisation can be useful tools. or maybe not.

[rendelharris]

Give it up FS, your lofty comments contribute nothing and are merely intended to show how superior you are. They don't work and just make you look rather silly. I haven't seen so much pointless pretension since supervising first-year B.A.students.

[flocker spotter]

I will take my leave - I merely bumped this to raise the issue for anyone buying a car to bear in mind how it impact the area and their potential purchase. I did gently suggest you might want to reconsider resurrecting your ill founded and risible tack, but I am an optimist. That is my only failing

[rendelharris]

QED.

[DulwichLondoner]

rendelharris Wrote:

---------------------------------------------

> Apart from four trains an hour to ED station,

> right by Sainsbury's, taking two minutes, the 42

> bus every ten minutes, or (with the usual caveat

> about the elderly and disabled) it's less than

> three quarters of a mile, taking the average

> person about fifteen minutes to walk or two

> minutes on a bike! Not the best argument for "I

> have to use my car" I think!

Have you tried to do it with one, or, God forbid, two toddlers?

Whne my first child was born I lost about a stone because I'd walk with the buggy everywhere, all the way to Brixton or Forest Hill or even Clapham a few times. But doing it with a week's supply of groceries is different.

If I remember correctly, the North Dulwich station is not accessible. And trains can be every 20 minutes, or, at weekends, sometimes every 30 or never when there are works. Ever tried waiting 20 to 30 minutes with two toddlers that need to be constantly entertained and distracted? I wouldn't wish it to my worst enemy.

The 42 and the 37 are some of the worst bus services in the area, after the P buses - I know from direct experience.

Look, I'm not saying that every parent should get a car. What I'm saying is that the difference is not immaterial. And I don't feel an enemy of the planet for buying one.

Also, while I don't think it would be wise to buy a car only to go to Sainsbury, having it opens a world of opportunities and makes life easier in a number of ways (again, especially if you have kids).

I know many couples in the area who bought a car only after reproducing. I don't know anyone with kids who has sold the car because they weren't using it (but I know some childless people who sold it because they weren't using it enough).

PS rendel, what's with you and flocker? You and I have had our disagreements but I think we have always managed to keep it civilised.

[rendelharris]

DulwichLondoner Wrote:

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> PS rendel, what's with you and flocker? You and I

> have had our disagreements but I think we have

> always managed to keep it civilised.

Indeed, because you've always had a point to make and argued it coherently and cogently and I respect that even if we disagree. A quick glance at FS's posting history demonstrates that s/he is only interested in putting others down and trying to portray her/himself as some sort of intellectual using dem big ol'words like "abstract conceptualization". Shame they can't punctuate, rather spoils the impression.

Back to cars, I'm not against people having them and using them sensibly, but they are massively and unnecessarily overused - we've all seen the ludicrous statistics about car use in London, with a third of journeys being less than 2,000 metres!

Re Sainsburys etc, why don't more people use home delivery? I'd far sooner be out in the back garden playing with a toddler in this weather, waiting for someone else to bring my shopping, than lugging said toddler round the supermarket.

[DulwichLondoner]

Those statistics, like those on the average income or the average wealth of Londoners, are close to meaningless because of the huge variability underlying those numbers.

I know quite a few families who live in Surrey or Kent and who have a cheap small second car because the first one is needed by the partner for commuting, and the second by the other partner simply to get to the station. 2kms doesn't seem much but there are plenty of places within the M25 where you need a car to cover a 2 or 3 km distance to the closest train station, without having a public transport alternative. Yes, it sucks having to buy a car just for such a small journey, but what's the alternative?

Also, if we're talking about the same report, car ownership and usage is, surprise surprise, much lower in zone 1 / inner London and increases the farther away you go, and also increases when you have children.

All I'm saying is there should be a distinction between the very centre of London, which is well connected and in which using a car causes clear and undeniable congestion, and everywhere else.

There are dodgy parts of North London with more parking restrictions than in South Kensington - that's ridiculous! Similarly, there are small towns which have made parking impossible, and then the council wonders why small town shops struggle and everyone goes to the out of town mall with free parking!

PS the problem with home delivery is perishable items : shops often offload the items which expire soon to home delivery, whereas in a shop you can choose.

[rendelharris]

DulwichLondoner Wrote:

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2kms doesn't seem

> much but there are plenty of places within the M25

> where you need a car to cover a 2 or 3 km distance

> to the closest train station, without having a

> public transport alternative. Yes, it sucks having

> to buy a car just for such a small journey, but

> what's the alternative?

A brisk walk? A short bicycle ride? How did our grandparents manage when almost nobody had a car? This is the level we've reached, when people can't see an alternative to having a car for a 2KM journey. No wonder we're all getting fatter!

[Earl Aelfheah]

Penguin68 Wrote:

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> 46% of London households do not possess a car at

> all. Are 46% of Londoners housebound?

>

> It would be interesting to know what proportion of

> this 46% either (a) do not have a qualified driver

> living there, or (b) cannot afford to run a car of

> whatever vintage or ©live close to decent tubes,

> buses or trains so that they can get easily across

> London. Or if you wish to put it this way (d)

> don't live in SE London!

This ^

[Earl Aelfheah]

Check out the WebCAT tool. Pretty much an hour minimum to get into central London from ED on public transport. With kids, longer.

[Earl Aelfheah]

If you live in other parts of London (outside of SE), you're usually close to a tube (or a docking station, or a superhighway). So it's hardly surprising that most don't feel it necessary to have a car.

[rendelharris]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> Check out the WebCAT tool. Pretty much an hour

> minimum to get into central London from ED on

> public transport. With kids, longer.

Yesterday I went to St.Pancras International to meet a mate from Paris, it took me 10 mins to walk to the station and 25mins on the train, how is that a minimum of an hour? The only way it'd take me more than an hour to get to central London is if I walked it, and even then I'd have to dawdle.