Wood vale cemetery New No flower policy

[dbboy]

Does not sound like a solution, rather things are going to stay the same, those are the rules blah, blah, blah.

Councillors not good enough, you should be standing up, representing your ward members and getting the best possible outcome, even if that means getting rules changed and common sense applied.

These families are grieving, removing their flowers is nothing less than insensitive and wrong. Financially they have invested greatly in floral memorials that they probably expect to remain till the flowers have withered and they can then dispose of them themselves, but then perhaps that's to simpler a solution for those managing the cemetery.

With regard to responsibility for informing families about regulations, would have thought responsibility should remain with the funeral directors, as when are the families going to see the cemetery staff??? Don't forget it is the funeral director who arranges the plot with the cemetery, not the family.

Representation, Representation, Representation............................

[Sue]

dbboy, both councillors have gone out of their way to help.

Why are you having a go at Renata?

She has clearly said that the policy is presently being reviewed.

[dbboy]

Not in my opinion. This needs SWIFT action and common sense applied. The solution is quite simple.

[James Barber]

I agree with dbboy.

This is people becoming distressed now. And this is avoidable.

I've asked for the policy to be suspended.

[Localresident]

http://www.harlow.gov.uk/building-control-disabled-access Just wondering if they consider grasses areas to comply with DDA building and landscaped areas regulations part m Whig state

Surfacing and hard landscaping

Design: Internal and external surfaces should be firm, non slip and well laid. Where changes in direction or levels do occur the path edge should be defined with a colour contrast, textured surface or where appropriate upstand kerb or low rail.

Street furniture: Should be clearly distinguishable from surrounding and be clearly defined. Projecting covers, isolated steps and large aperture gratings are to be avoided.

Pathways

Dimensions: Pathways should be a minimum of 1.8 metres wide and 2 metres wide if possible.

Movement: Pathways should be clear of obstacles; edges should be clearly defined and routes from roads, bus stops and car parks should be signposted and well lit.

Kerbs: Dropped kerbs, flush with the carriageway, which offer a gradient of maximum ratio of 1:10 should be used subject to detailed design and drainage requirements; use of non slip textured-footway surface and pedestrian crossings are advisable.

Clearly with Small area in front of each plot the grounds would have more then 1.8 m in between each plot as I do not consider the plot to be a pathway anyway ? the grounds fail on other key points within the document making the whole dda argument irrelevant surely ?

[Mckeng01]

Hi Im Greg McKenzie from BBC London Radio, The Vanessa Feltz Breakfast Show.

I'll like to get your story on air this week and get you some answers for you.

Please email me your contact numbers: [email protected]

I'd like to talk to somebody who has recently had flowers taken away without there permission or even told about it and anybody else who'd like to comment.

Many thanks

[Penguin68]

Based on what Renata wrote:-...

There are no new rules, nothing has changed in the 4 years since this burial area within Camberwell Old Cemetery was used for new burials.

The regulations were set up in accordance with section 3 of the Communities Act, disabled access regulations and health and safety regulations. They were consulted on at the time and various stakeholder groups were involved in this. The way the area is set up allows you to have a headstone without a long wait and to long term have flowers/plants/other items on the gravel area in front of the headstone, but the rest is to be allowed to settle and allow to be covered in turf. Flowers and other memorials are left for at least 7 days elsewhere on the grave, in your case it was 11 days.

Your funeral director should have explained this to you when you ticked the box to have your father buried in a lawned area rather than a memorialised area; what this meant in practice. It sounds like that you were not made aware of this when you signed the document. There are current updates in the policy being investigated. One thing that is being looked at is increasing the time that flowers and mermorials can be left on the grave and also that cemetery staff deal directly with families to explain the options rather than it being done by the funeral directors. I'm sorry that this is not going to undo your upsetting situation, but hopefully this will not be repeated for grieving families using this cemetery burial area in the future.

Renata

...it would seem that the OP had not been fully informed by the funeral director (or maybe in the trauma of loss had not picked up on any information given) about the differences between lawned and memorialised parts of the cemetery. And about time-frames of keeping flower memorials located around the grave. This seems a communications rather than necessarily a policy problem. Comments about the wishes of locals may simply be hearsay. Clearly there is a need for more sensitivity in this area. But it is true that complex (cut) floral memorials do (necessarily) deteriorate and will eventually result in the grave and surrounds looking very bedraggled (not what the OP would want, I suspect). At some stage they do need to be removed. But maybe not quite so quickly, or perhaps based on their actual state rather than a rule-driven time - and certainly after communication with the principal representative of the deceased (the person who organised the funeral).

I'm by no means sure that this is quite the 'scandal' that it first appeared to be (without in any way wishing to diminish the levels of very clear distress felt by the OP). Certainly things could be better done, by many in this complex area, officials and funeral directors, but I'm not sure this is quite the maladministration it first seemed to be.

[James Barber]

The policy is different between Southwark Cemeteries. Also different levels of enforcement and style of enforcement.

The policy relies on people during grief understanding what a particular box ticked over another means.

A number of families have complained to the cemetery office and not been sign posted to the official complaints policy - so the council management are unaware of any complaints having ever been made.

Maladminstration is too strong. But clearly the current rules , processes and lack of accepting complaints is wrong.

[Localresident]

Hi penguin

I in no way suggested that this was a scandal , in fact to continue on from what councillor barber has said above I spent over a week back and forth emailing and calling with a manager without any mention of any form of complaints procedure If I wanted to raise one further rather responses were , here's the rules so sorry and blaming the directors / local residents ( anyone other then themselves . hence my choice to come to the forum for help . It is the job of the funarel director to inform the customer but it is the job of the local authority to inform the directors clearly . Which has not happened I will not name the directors but I assure you they are comfortably one of the biggest in London . Just because a rule is in place it does not make it right , it is insensitive and heartless to expect people to grieve in this way , and I invite you to join myself and councillor barber on Saturday morning at 830 to do a site visit and discuss the policy on site , ( entrance by wood vale supermarket will be a meeting point ) again I do not wish to paint a picture of a scandal and I totally agree regarding removal of dead flowers , surely if this was written into the rules that unkept plots will be cleared ( photographed ) and removed in a respectable fashion family's would have the choice to either keep the plot nice or leave it to the cemetery staff , and the cemetery staff would have stronger grounds to remove any untidy or unsightly flowers , that have been neglected , the fact is . Firstly I was tod that this was because of the fight the cemetery had with wood vale residents who " did not want to look at the flowers " I then informed the maneger who told me I was going to contact said residents and ask , I was asked to avoid doing this and then re told the same rule , with the addition of DDA access which no part of the grounds meet anyway as you'll see in my previous post about it , may not be a scandal , but let's just hope anybody who disagrees now does not have to bury a parent or child and be told the same . If you would like to pm your email address I'll happily send you photos of the plot before and after it was cleared just two days apart .

[Penguin68]

Dear Localresident - I said that it appeared a scandal (as it did) derived by me from your description of what happened; I didn't say that you overtly described it as such. As I live 3 minutes from the cemetery (and regularly walk in it) I don't really need to see it with you - or Councilor Barber. I think he (and I) are clear that there is clearly a communications problem here, both within the cemetery apparat, between that and the council and between all and funeral directors (and thence back to you, as a representative of the cemetery's 'clients'). There are, apparently, long standing (4 years) rules, they may not be consistently applied and they are not well communicated. All of these are failures which probably need addressing. The rules also, as I read them, differentiate in treatment of different types of burial, which will again add to confusion. You seem to think that I am not on your 'side' - which may be true only in the sense that I am not on anyone's side. I was perhaps just making the point that it seemed more cock-up than conspiracy, although I was clear to add that if so this did not in any way lessen your disquiet or upset. '(without in any way wishing to diminish the levels of very clear distress felt by the OP)