Wood vale cemetery New No flower policy

[Localresident]

Hi ,

We have recently buried our father in wood vale cemetery in one of the new burial plots. after visiting and finding quite literally everything removed from his plot from the actual funarul flowers to new flowers which we had laid the day before we got into touch with the management team to find out what was going on , we were informed that any flowers at left infront of our plot ( which cost just short of four thousand pound) would be removed.instead we are told we must leave flowers on a shared 1 foot gravel barer running behind some of the graves this feels very un personal and anything left cannot be seen once the stone is in place , nor can it be told who it actually belongs to as the graves are almost back to back , causing a larger tripping hazard then it would be if they were on the front ) , leaving not even a foot of space for each plot . When this was questioned we were told that local residents had objected to looking at these memorials hence why they had to be behind the plots out of site. they also stated that maintenance is easier for them if they do it this way so we had asked for the small barer to be places in front of the graves once they had settled ( prevents flowers from being placed on grass - no maintenance issue ? Again we had not requested to use the full plot which we purchased just a small personal 1 foot sized barer in front of our fathers grave for us to leave something when we visit. The final reason we was given is the classic health and safety which I do not understand as a one foot bearer infront of each plot is impossible to cause any access issues ( there is at least 3/4 meters in between the graves which lay opposite each other to be used as walking space yet even the small barer infront is something they've said the would not support . When we originally found this issue there were several plots totally striped including one of a 16 month old child who's parents were quite traumatized that personalized items including photos and gifts left from the child's siblings were removed , it is a long tradition to leave flowers or small gifts at a loved ones graves and I honestly cannot see local residents having a issue with this and wondered if anybody had and knowledge or experience with this issue .

[dbboy]

I go past about once a week and have seen flowers left on graves remain there, so am very surprised to learn that cemetery personnel are removing flowers from graves. Clearly if this is a new approach by Southwark, it seems wholly wrong, inappropriate and insensitive. Suggest you contact the local press to expose these practices. I think their would be a huge out cry against the Council's approach.

[Localresident]

I agree , we were told it was a struggle to get this burial space as it is facing the road on wood vale , we was also told that not everyone looks after their plot , and it would not be fair to remove flowers from neglected plots and leave them on plots which are cared for , I feel that if it was written into he deeds that neglected plots would be cleared or dead flowers removed that this would avoid this issue rather then this new blanket rule , I have stressed all of this to management and been told that this would not be supported. Maybe I should contact the southwark news about it all

[alice]

This is so wrong. Stay strong.

[Localresident]

Was no sure if I was being over sensitive , thank you

[JohnL]

I would just keep putting flowers where I thought appropriate until they give up or take me to court (I don't get to visit my parents graves very often and will always put flowers on the grave - it shows someone still remembers them).

[Localresident]

Exactly , I have since put flowers and a plants down and they have been moved to behind on the shingles I mentioned , I am hoping if enough people learn of this new rule maybe we can get something more considerate put into place for sand future families in the area who bury there loved ones there .

[Sue]

This is terrible.

Why would local residents object to looking at memorials, if presumably they knew the cemetery was there?

How insensitive, to remove items from graves, and without even any warning or notification, I assume?

Appalling.

[Localresident]

OCorrect , the exact words were " the residents do not want to look at them all " we were given 7 days after the service then total clearance with no advance warning or opportunity to collect anything we wanted to keep , ( I was planning to push fresh flowers into the frames )we found out about this 7 day rule after the clearence and everything

Left since has been moved or removed we are at a bit of a loose end as I do not feel we are being unreasonable with our requests , yet none are being taken into account , repeatedly told that these are the rules and regs and that there is no grounds or intentions to change them

[JoeLeg]

I live opposite the cemetery, indeed opposite the new graves, and have to say I?m disgusted that anyone on Wood Vale has objected to seeing flowers! What business is it of ours how people greave?! I might understand if the management had to keep it clear for reasons of safety or land management, but I cannot conceive of Nimbyist locals having any moral authority in this matter.

Localresident, to whom should I speak in the cemetery about that? If it?s true then other residents need to speak up - I was certainly never asked!

I should sincerely hope there?s been some kind of misunderstanding here.

[dbboy]

Suggest you write a formal letter to the Cabinet Member who's ward it is, the Head of Cemeteries/ Cemeteries Manager and the Head of Southwark Council, plus South London Press, Southwark News, ITV London and BBC London to publicise this as much as possible.

As I said earlier this approach is absolutely insensitive and especially as some of the recent new graves have had some wonderful floral tributes which can't have been cheap to have made.

Do the cemetery have any notices stating the new rules posted around the cemetery?

What have the undertakers advised?

And has the issue been raised with the local florists who it inevitably is going to affect, if mourners cannot have the wonderful flowers they gave provided?

Just come back, and it seems from memory as though where multiple floral tributes have been placed surrounding the grave, these have been removed, but I might be wrong??

Shame on anyone who has complained about the floral tributes, the large ones in particular were wonderful to see, Southwark Council show some decency to these people.

[Localresident]

Hi Joe thanks for your response I believe a email address is [email protected] is there min email address as with their generic telephone number I was told there were extensive. Efforts had to be made as that all local residents we're informed or involved in the process . I found it very hard to believe that residents would have a issue with this , also with you living so close I hope you can also see why flowers would not cause access issues as was another one of their reasons

[Localresident]

I feel this is the most likely outcome , the cemetery pointed the finger at the undertaker for not making us aware of these rules and have admitted that they should have direct contact with new grace owners , disputes this the rule as a whole needs reviewing as you said is totally insensitive, it took me around 30 minutes in confusion to find my fathers plot as I recognized it by the flowers as well as the small shop on wood vale as it is almost opposite , I had intact had to read 15-20 plaques on the temporary crosses placed to find where he was , I will do you a picture of what was taken perfectly fresh tribute which cost over 1500 pounds to have made over the Christmas period .

[JoeLeg]

Yeah, well, I?m a local resident and I call BS on any assertion that they made efforts of any type.

I?ll be getting into this, though I?m not holding my breath that I?ll get any answers quickly.

[Localresident]

If you send Me your email I will happily cc you Ito email to the manager of the grounds he's pretty responsive albeit

Often to remind me that these are the rules that are in place

[JoeLeg]

PM?d you Local, thanks.

[1921]

I am so sorry for your recent loss and this happening to you and your family. Flowers, gifts etc are completely normal on graves, I would understand if very old looking flowers were removed but this is not the case.

Personally I would contact your local councillor and ask them to deal with the cemetery on your behalf. You are grieving and most probably have plenty of other things to deal with that sadly happens when a death happens. It is also appalling they have blamed residents that clearly have not been consulted.

With best wishes.

[Sue]

I wonder if James Barber has seen this thread?

I'll copy the link onto his thread on here.

ETA: Ah, I saw you had just told him about the thread! Anyway, I've copied the link, though I'm sure he would easily find it.

[Localresident]

Thank you , I raised the issue with them regarding residents before posting onto here , they then stated that it was also for maintenance issues ( easier grass cutting ) which I suggested placing the small gravel seaction in fRont of graves. instead prevent flowers being left on lawns but still allowing each plot a personal space , this was not supported by by cemetery and was said to be undoable , due to access issues for the elderly and disabled which I thought seemed far fetched as there is tons of walking space between opposing graves. we was also denied the right to install a kerb style grave for our father due to these reasons which we had to acccept , but the flower issue was a step too far . I will look into who to contact regarding this thank you again for your well wishes

[Localresident]

Hi sue thanks for this would apriciate you passing it on for he's veiwingbwould be interesting to hear he's opinion on what's been going on

[James Barber]

Hi localresident,

Can you please email ne at [email protected] and I will take your specific case up and the general rule. It does seems terribly heartless.

[Renata Hamvas]

Hi localresident

I have contacted the Staff who manage Camberwell Old Cemetery in relation to the regulations with regard to flowers etc on the graves at the Wood Vale End of the Cemetery. I have not heard about this rule before. I will post back here when I get a response.

Renata

[James Barber]

Hi localresident,

Many thanks for calling me.

I have forwarded your email correspondence to the relevant director asking that:

"

Hi xxxxxxxx,

We appear to have new cemetery rules that don't resonate with anyone outside the small council team.

A 35 year Southwark Council Street Cleaning Supervisor xxxxxxx xxxxxxx recently passed away. He was buried at a Southwark Council plot. The family were dismayed that the flowers and subsequent flowers have been removed before the end of their life. A 7 day rule. That they were removed in an untidy way. That a nearby babies grave presents and flowers were also removed distressing the family and siblings of the baby.

This policy is heartless. I can see the administrative thinking behind it. But that does not in any way change the impact on families.

Can you please urgently review this policy?

Can this review be undertaken with the help of bereaved families and undertakers?

While this is done can the policy be suspended as a sign to families that Southwark Council does care?

"

I have copied you and also Cllr Renata Hamvas in the hope you don't need to have lots of dialogue with two councillors and that officers deal with one request jointly.

[dbboy]

Looks like joined up working, (well done James and Renata) hopefully common sense will prevail and this ridiculous policy will be withdrawn and revoked permanently.

[Renata Hamvas]

Hi Local Resident,

I am sorry for your recent loss and the distress this has caused you.

I have had a response from Sam Rees who is the manager of the Southwark Cemeteries.

There are no new rules, nothing has changed in the 4 years since this burial area within Camberwell Old Cemetery was used for new burials.

The regulations were set up in accordance with section 3 of the Communities Act, disabled access regulations and health and safety regulations. They were consulted on at the time and various stakeholder groups were involved in this. The way the area is set up allows you to have a headstone without a long wait and to long term have flowers/plants/other items on the gravel area in front of the headstone, but the rest is to be allowed to settle and allow to be covered in turf. Flowers and other memorials are left for at least 7 days elsewhere on the grave, in your case it was 11 days.

Your funeral director should have explained this to you when you ticked the box to have your father buried in a lawned area rather than a memorialised area; what this meant in practice. It sounds like that you were not made aware of this when you signed the document. There are current updates in the policy being investigated. One thing that is being looked at is increasing the time that flowers and mermorials can be left on the grave and also that cemetery staff deal directly with families to explain the options rather than it being done by the funeral directors. I'm sorry that this is not going to undo your upsetting situation, but hopefully this will not be repeated for grieving families using this cemetery burial area in the future.

Renata