Controlled parking and other issues

[Bobby P]

Paul

Thanks for your comments and I'm pleased your CPZ is working for you. I wonder where you live...

I do need to correct you on your assumptions, however.

I lived previously in Belsize Park, first with no CPZ and then after its introduction. I can safely say that parking there was INFINITELY more difficult than East Dulwich is today (i.e. much harder to find a space). It was hard before they introduced residents' parking. And afterwards? Absolutely no difference. I still had to regularly drive several roads away to park the car.

It did, however, make a difference in other ways... Shelling out for the yearly permit. Plus another ?5 each for visitors' permits which I needed when, for instance, my aged parents came to stay from up north (and these permits only lasted 4 hours, were restricted in numbers, and caused endless practical problems). In addition, I was often ticketed and towed when bays were suspended on no notice, making my legally parked car outside my house (or several roads away if I was unlucky) suddenly a target for the privatised commission-based parking vultures. After writing to the Council on at least 5 such occasions, the tickets were rescinded. But why should residents need the extra hassle and aggravation of doing so? Or losing their car to the tow-trucks? I can tell you the extra anxiety isn't worth it.

I'm not in any way one of the "car lobby". I work in Kings Cross, and by far the quickest way from ED to my office is on the bicycle, which I use regularly. Public transport on this journey is unreliable: one can never be sure to arrive on time (involves too many changes). Around ED, I will normally walk or cycle - though occasionally the car is of use. My car is a necessity of my job.

One stupid problem we have in ED is not being able to use pre-pay Oyster on the trains. As my work entails different and varied journeys around London, it becomes a complete nightmare working out which ticket is cheaper: 2 singles, a day travelcard, an Oyster on the bus? I often end up paying massively over the odds for the day's journeys by making the wrong decision at the start of the day.

But you really shouldn't polarise the CPZ issue into car-owners and other residents along some simplistic Green lines. Driving a car does not make me less environmentally aware. Wanting to live in a pleasant area where the Council (the imcompetent freeholders on my property!) can't get their hands on another area of my daily life is not a crime. The lack of CPZ here, believe me, is a blessing, and a hugely pleasant change from Belsize Park.

Finally, for the record, I can always find a space on Melbourne Grove, not necessarily right outside my house, but so what? In a city, I don't believe it's a God-given right to park immediately outside your house. The parking problem is nothing like as bad here as it was up in Belsize. So why even consider bringing in something which will REDUCE the quality of life? Those who offend with their three cars will simply pay up and park on the streets. The fees and fines benefit the Council. They don't help residents.

[Guest]

Paul

I use PT all the time buses trains and tube and agree that it has improved greatly especially the buses and their frequency

but I agree with Bobby it would be a lot better if we were able to use the pre pay oyster cards on the trains. As i use PT nearly every day it seems to me that there are more and more people using it which is why it is more difficult to get a seat ...no and I dont mind standing...I do realise we do not live in a perfect world..yes and I would cycle (i do own a bike) But I'm clearly not brave enought to compete with the cars lorries and delivery vans. There will never be a perfect solution ..

I never said it was rubbish.

[Guest]

I used to live in Balham and CPZ was brought it whilst I was there and I have to say it made a huge difference to the parking in our street and surrounding areas and parking was loads easier, even outside the hours of the controls. I also never had any problems with incorrect ticketing and we were able to get 1 day visitors passes for ?1 each which I think is reasonable. Then again this was wandsworth council who in my experience are tons more efficient than Southwark so I'm not confident that it would be as well run here.

We have one car for our household of 4 people and i'm quite happy to pay for that if it means I'm more likely to be able to park close to my house and at least feel that the family over the road who inexplicably have 4 cars for 3 people will be feeling it in their pocket. It also might encourage the numerous business van owners who also park down the street to park elsewhere (and yes I know this is only moving the problem but when I'm trying to park near the house with a bootload of shopping and 2 kids in the back I do turn into a bit of a nimby)

And I totally agree about oyster. I work part time so not worth me having a travelcard and drives me mad missing trains all over the place as i'm queueing up for tickets while my pre pay oyster is languishing in my bag.

[all_star]

lazygirl - trains are moving to Oyster soon I think, so you will be able to prepay for train journeys (TFL press release).

---

Yay - we stayed on topic for 67 posts - go team!

[Guest]

Bobby

I live in Kendal in Cumbria. Yes, I know it's a long way away, and I know that some EDF'ers will be outraged that I've got the cheek to invade their 'locals only' forum. But perhaps my experience is closer to your own than you think. (And I'm more of a South London Boy than many people on the Forum, being born in St Alpheges Hospital in 1959 and living in SE London continuously until two years ago).

Our CPZ in Kendal is three minutes walk from the busy town centre, which is serviced by lots of Pay Car parks. Before the CPZ we had lots of shoppers cruising our streets looking for free (as in vacant as well as costing nothing) parking spaces. The aggro was considerable. Now our streets are much quieter, kids play safely in them, and MOST people do not begrudge the ?60 per year fee. Yes, I said ?60pa. Inevitably some residents moan even about that small price - I wish they understood how much they could be paying elsewhere.

We get two permits, one for us and one for visitors. Got two cars? You won't be able to have any car borne visitors then. Got more than two cars? Tough - the nearest streets without a CPZ are a LONG WAY AWAY. I've never heard of cars getting towed, bays don't get suspended, fines are a rare thing, and it seems to work very well. I somehow doubt Southwark Council runs its CPZs in quite the same way, but perhaps they do a better job than Belsize Park did?

My other personal experience of CPZs was when I used to walk to Catford through the CPZ by the stations. Before the CPZ, it was nasty, stressful and dangerous, with commuters in a hurry looking for spaces, not pedestrians, and parking all over the place (including on pavements and across junctions). The CPZ eliminated nearly all of that misbehaviour, as well as the circulating traffic, and the fee ensured resources were available to properly enforce parking regs.

It's obvious from this that, as with most things, the devil is in the detail. But I've just finished working with ED'ers looking at how Lordship Lane works, and some of the people involved (including a resident in Melbourne Grove) said they were totally fed up with their streets becoming noisy, clogged linear car parks every weekend. If the streets around Lordship Lane are used by car-borne shoppers coming in to the area at present, surely your streets will be quieter, calmer, more 'residential' with a CPZ?

Eliza

No, you didn't say the PT system was rubbish - so please accept my apologies for that.

But you did say:

"we're not all going to give up our cars until we have a safe clean and reliable public transport system."

And in your retort you seem to agree that the system HAS got loads better - while of course still far from perfect. When in London I use an Oyster card and experience the same problems as you and Bobby. But Oyster is fantastic already, and improving all the time! Movement on and off buses, and through Tube turnstiles is much quicker and smoother, helping the system become faster and more reiable, and carry more people. Bus capacity has been increased by something like a third, I think, and ridership figures have gone up by a similar amount. New buses are quieter, better sprung and cleaner, bus lanes and traffic light technology that favours buses over traffic has made buses quicker than the cars around them - even though they have to stop at stops regularly.

If those of us who use PT, who know its much improved, who feel that people could readily use their cars less and use alternatives more, if we don't make positive noises, then who will?

And while I accept absolutely that it doesn't apply to you, my question still remains unanswered:

Why is it that motorists put up with a totally sh*te private car system, but are only prepared to consider PT if it becomes totally flawless?

[Huguenot]

Go Paul!

On a most important, and less divisive point, it is not the wealthy incomers to ED that are stockpiling cars... Review several other postings to identify long-term resident car hoarders... ;-)

[Guest]

You're too kind, Hugue (I can call you Hugue, can't I?)

If you think the locals/incomers issue is vexed in ED, try coming up here - I'll never be accepted as a Kendalian, my kids and grandkids won't either. I've heard of hill farmers from villages five miles away being shunned for not being 'proper' Kendalians.

What I love (and miss) about London is that the whole city is incomers - EVERYONE who lives in London is a Londoner in my book.

My parents were squeezed out of West Greenwich by wealthy incomers, I was squeezed out of Forest Hill by wealthy incomers, and I in my turn am squeezing Kendalians out of this part of the town (which incidentally is nicknamed "Little Islington", yeuch!!)

Sorry, all_star, we're off-topic. I promise not to do it again.

[Guest]

"Little Islington" - fantanstic! ha ha

[Guest]

My road is full of cars during the day. People park their cars near the neighbouring roads to go to the station.

BTW I am am an ugly knob.

[snorky]

swiders Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> i can't wait for the hysterical hyperdrive

> reaction that will follow once the issue starts to

> be looked at. classic phrases such as "stealth

> tax" and "anti-motorist" etc will be wheeled out.

> certainly if the last CPZ consultation is anything

> to go by that will be the case. lest the facts get

> in the way.

>

> I guess people just have to face facts, when there

> are too many cars around the lack of control may

> just create more problems than solve and thus a

> form of road space charge can be an effective

> solution. Its true that people have to change some

> of their travel habits (we don't use our car for

> local trips except for the odd big shop to

> sainsburys) but hand in hand with this, people

> have to accept with greater affluence comes

> greater pressures on road space and ultimately

> parking. Its really a matter now of examining, as

> factually as possibly without people getting

> juvenile and maniacal, the problems (if indeed

> there are any and what is the most likely cause)

> and if a CPZ is a logical and acceptable form of

> response.

WWord

[Bobby P]

Paul,

I am very interested in your Lordship Lane proposals, on the other thread. Good luck with some of those, which hopefully will make the areas more pleasant for pedestrians. Something we would all like. As for parking, there are already parking restrictions on Lordship and some on the adjacent roads.

However, while your faraway home of Kendal does indeed seem to be a parking Utopia (you get 2 FULL PERMITS? For only ?60?), I know that a) Southwark, like Camden, charge more than Kendal both for the annual and daily permits, b) they are much more restrictive with guest parking - i.e. you are only allowed so many permits a month with restricted hours - and c) suspended bays are commonplace in London, where the roads are always being dug up by somebody, or for building works/skips.

I can only reiterate my experience in Camden Borough, where the CPZ caused residents only grief, hassle and expense, with no relief on parking.

I see the roads around Lordship both during weekdays and on weekends, and while some roads are definitely more congested than others when the market is open, for instance, there are spaces. At other times of day and week, it seems to me there are lots of spaces. No, they're not going to be right outside one's home, but that is a daft luxury for any city dweller to expect. If you want that, move to the countryside.

I simply don't think there is a critical problem with parking here in ED. Melbourne Grove most often has tons of spaces. All free and easy for residents. I know other may differ, but I've never had to park more than a couple of hundred yards away from the house, and mostly can park within 30 feet of it. Such small freedoms do make life more pleasant, and I have the direct contrast of my previous abode to compare it with.

So I'm afraid I do stand by my experiences in North London where the CPZ simply didn't do any good at all - except for the Council's coffers of course.

[Paul Holdsworth]

Thanks, Bobby, I suppose we'll just have to agree to differ.

As for the Lordship Lane Community Street Audit, I'm supposed to be writing the report right now, but I just find this Forum more interesting!

For those in the know, you'll probably be relieved to hear that I'll be suggesting Southwark improves the zebras round your darling roundabout, rather than anything more radical. Again, I'm having to agree to differ from local opinion on this, and I know my place - Lordship Lane is YOUR neighbourhood, not mine!