I need a group of breastfeeding and non-breastfeeding mums!

[sophiechristophy]

why is it bashing to discuss the content of breast milk or formula? It is not bashing to look at the facts. people feel bashed because of the judgements they make of themselves as a result of considering the facts.

[helena handbasket]

Actually I think people feel bashed because they are judging themselves harshly for having to make a poor choice where there is really no other choice. Sadly it seems like your worst critics are always the mums who don't can't empathize.

PND coupled with the agony of not being able to feed your brand new baby creates a perfect storm. Not to mention that if you are not able to breast feed than you miss out on the therapeutic effects of oxytocin. Bottle feeding is a lot of work and those mothers are that much more exhausted. Combine with whatever issues led to BF problems in the first place and it's a lose lose lose situation. To peddle horror stories to women in this situation is just incredibly insensitive. Nobody is pretending that formula is as good as breast, but you never hear the caveat that statistically your child will be just fine on it once you adjust for societal factors (maternal health and education, access to health care etc.).

When will people start to look at this as the very real and serious mental health issue that it is?

[Ruth_Baldock]

SG88:

Re: who bashes (ooh err) breastfeeding Mothers. Choosing my words carefully, I'd say it's anyone who gives us looks or says anything derogatory to us in public when we get the ol' boobs out to feed our babies. It's also they myriad of people, in our lives sometimes (well meaning relatives, you know the sort) who assume breastmilk can't possibly be enough for the baby to thrive on. As hard as it is for Mothers who bottlefeed to deal with any sort of, un-needed, rebuttle it's hard for BF too. When you've got a newborn, and you're just getting to grips with breastfeeding, it is NOT helpful to suggest that:

1) Breastfeeding is perverse because it, shock horror, involves getting your boobs out and how very DARE you do it outside your home.

2) That the baby is crying because they're starving because your breastmilk can't possibly be enough to satisfy them.

I have had both said to me, on a number of occasions. The latter statement was said by my son's great g-ma, three days post-partum. And then by lots of her friends, about three weeks later. I've been told I 'can't do that here' when BF my son (all over the place, it's happened. Shockingly at Peckham Pulse Jelly Babies of all places). I've been told his slow weight gain was down to my shoddy milk ('now Mum, what's wrong with your milk? it's just not enough, is it?' said the HV to me. Idiot). I have been given 'looks' and tutted at loudly when feeding him in public, and my own Mother (who was an extended breastfeeder herself...) has asked 'when are you going to stop THAT?'. No one asks a bottle feeding mother 'When are you going to stop FF and start giving the baby cows/goats milk?'. Or do they?

Anyway, some anecdotal evidence of BF bashing. I don't have any stats or studies to back my point up, because I'm a bit cr*p like that.

[Yak]

Will this thread change decisions people have made - for whatever reason- in the past? Probably not.

Could it make them feel bad about those decisions they've made? Probably yes.

Let's all relax.

http://c1.planetsave.com/files/2011/01/someone-is-wrong.jpg

[Ruth_Baldock]

Yak: That cartoon = me and my husband to a tee. We need hobbies I think...

[cuppa tea]

Yak - that is very funny :)

It's all a bit messed up really isn't it?!

We get critised whatever we do as mothers. I just wish there was more help surrounding breastfeeding as I am sure more mum's want to do it, but don't through many, many difficulties. Probably a good deal of problems are preventable given the right help either before the baby is born and the days immediately afterwards. I know alot of women who have had a professional/'well-meaning' relative make a comment along the lines of "ah just put him/her on a bottle" at the first hurdle. THis is not helpful even from the point of the comment making the new mum feel a failure. Support and advice are 2 very different things.

[jennyh]

Ruth_Baldock Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> SG88:

>

> Re: who bashes (ooh err) breastfeeding Mothers.

> Choosing my words carefully, I'd say it's anyone

> who gives us looks or says anything derogatory to

> us in public when we get the ol' boobs out to feed

> our babies. It's also they myriad of people, in

> our lives sometimes (well meaning relatives, you

> know the sort) who assume breastmilk can't

> possibly be enough for the baby to thrive on. As

> hard as it is for Mothers who bottlefeed to deal

> with any sort of, un-needed, rebuttle it's hard

> for BF too. When you've got a newborn, and you're

> just getting to grips with breastfeeding, it is

> NOT helpful to suggest that:

>

> 1) Breastfeeding is perverse because it, shock

> horror, involves getting your boobs out and how

> very DARE you do it outside your home.

> 2) That the baby is crying because they're

> starving because your breastmilk can't possibly be

> enough to satisfy them.

>

> I have had both said to me, on a number of

> occasions. The latter statement was said by my

> son's great g-ma, three days post-partum. And then

> by lots of her friends, about three weeks later.

> I've been told I 'can't do that here' when BF my

> son (all over the place, it's happened. Shockingly

> at Peckham Pulse Jelly Babies of all places). I've

> been told his slow weight gain was down to my

> shoddy milk ('now Mum, what's wrong with your

> milk? it's just not enough, is it?' said the HV to

> me. Idiot). I have been given 'looks' and tutted

> at loudly when feeding him in public, and my own

> Mother (who was an extended breastfeeder

> herself...) has asked 'when are you going to stop

> THAT?'. No one asks a bottle feeding mother 'When

> are you going to stop FF and start giving the baby

> cows/goats milk?'. Or do they?

>

> Anyway, some anecdotal evidence of BF bashing. I

> don't have any stats or studies to back my point

> up, because I'm a bit cr*p like that.

Thanks for this as I am genuinely interested to hear how many breastfeeding mothers feel. As I couldn't, I wrongly presume that everyone who breastfeeds has everything they want and is as happy as larry, when as you say it is a difficult time for everyone and it is interesting to her your experiences of BF bashing. I must admit I wasnt aware that this really went on. Why can't people just think more rather than making comments to make you feel you could be doing better/something different. in answer to your question about whether people ask when we wil stop formula feeding I don't get that but I have been asked many times why I am formula feeding, cue the whole long-winded reasoning and me getting increasingly flustered and apologetic!

I think the issue with opinions on formla feeding is that it seemingly comes at you from every direction, the media, relatives, passers by, the formula companies and then endless research papers that question the current and future health of your baby, there is nothing more important so it is devastating to hear. Not sure if it is just me as well but I hardly ever come across bottle feeders in public, so I feel that all eyes are on me (particularly at the gardens cafe!) but I am sure it is just in my head as most are very well meaning.

I understand that someone saying you are not feeding your baby enough breastmilk would be upsetting as it questions your abilities to parent and ultimately to do the best for your child, which is all we are trying to do!

PS I am not going to keep posting tonight, got an Indian takeaway coming and some rubbish TV on the agenda!

[supergolden88]

I meant bashing on the Forum

Anyway, I guess I have been very lucky - I have exposed my boobs to all of Nunhead, East D and Peckham on buses, trains, restaurants and pretty much everywhere else in between and never had any looks (that I was aware of) and certainly no words.

Personally I would not consider narrowminded people tutting at the sight of a boob as 'bashing'.

As for HVs - I just don't understand the entire concept at all. I have had such contradictory advice from them that tend not to listen to a word they say and have not seen one with second baby since he was a few weeks old.

I think the support network for breastfeeding mums is there if you know where to look but certainly could be a LOT better esp. when you first start. And it would not hurt if GPs where a little more informed on the subject.

[The Nappy Lady]

Re the original post, I can't say I was ever confused about how long to breastfeed for - in my mind it was 'at least 6 months' but pretty much as long as possible. In the end 16 months ish first time around and the day before 2nd birthday for no.2 (because my OH wanted me back LOL), and it was time really :))

Do people really get confused about how long they should (if possible) breastfeed for? If so I am very surprised. Interested to hear more EMC.

Personally I'm sorry this thread went down the route it did (again). I have no doubt that the majority of women go into Motherhood hoping to breastfeed, some of us are lucky and find it easy, some of us struggle but get there, and for some of us it just doesn't work out. It is an issue that has to be handled with kid gloves, every single time.

Here's an interesting thing, when I was a milk donor for the Kings Milk Bank, one of the ladies there told me that some of the nurses in the Special Care Baby Unit were much more 'pro' the donor milk than others, and that you could often tell which nurse had spoken to which parent by the stance they were taking on whether they wanted their premature baby to have donor milk or formula. When she spoke to them she didn't call it formula, she would say do you want 'donated human milk' or 'processed, powdered cows milk' for your baby? In nearly every case the parents would opt for the donated milk.

This is not intended to be a judgemental statement at all. I just think it is interesting - by calling it formula, does it change the way we think of it? Does it make it sound more 'medical' more 'scientific' so to speak. Hmmm.

Edited to add - all the research in the world wouldn't change my mind - as far as I'm concerned nature knows best on this and my body will produce what my baby needs...BUT if that isn't possible then I would take the next option like a shot, and right now, in this world we are in then that would be formula, and frankly if a women has no other option, what would you do. You have to put yourself in these womens shoes to understand both sides I think.

I really, really loved breastfeeding, and it was thankfully easy (though not painless initially) for me to do with both my girls. From the bottom of my heart I wish I could hand that experience to every women. To this day I remember sitting and curling my toes and counting to 10 when my first daughter latched on during the first week or two ....and I know I had it easy, so cannot beging to imagine how soul destroying it must be for those who try and try without success. The fact your tried makes you a wonderful parent, trying and trying is all any of us can do when it comes to being a Mum!

Love and peace ladies.

[helena handbasket]

Lovely post Molly.(tu)

[cuppa tea]

"Anyway, I guess I have been very lucky - I have exposed my boobs to all of Nunhead, East D and Peckham on buses, trains, restaurants and pretty much everywhere else in between and never had any looks (that I was aware of) and certainly no words.

Personally I would not consider narrowminded people tutting at the sight of a boob as 'bashing'."

It's interesting this. Breastfeeding bashing. I fed my first child until he was 2.5...and I can tell you opinion pretty quickly turns around as to how long you should breastfeed for! The insults are much more forthcoming - you suddenly go from a positive angel and feeding your baby milk from the gods to a downright pervert!

[cuppa tea]

Yes, lovely post Molly. It's also interesting how scientific language and research can change our behaviour.

[sillywoman]

> I really, really loved breastfeeding, and it was

> thankfully easy (though not painless initially)

> for me to do with both my girls. From the bottom

> of my heart I wish I could hand that experience to

> every women.

I think that sometimes that desire to help can be the cause of some of what's perceived as 'bashing'. There are women, like you Molly, who want to help other women to be able to breastfeed their babies if that's what they want. They know that there's a lot of damaging and incorrect information out there that can seriously hinder those women at time when they are vulnerable and struggling. The 'evolutionary' comment earlier in the thread being a prime example. When these women raise their heads above the parapet to challenge those unsubstantiated and ill informed opinions by presenting scientific, researched and proven fact it's often seen as either a personal attack, or as a challenge to any decision to formula feed. I think it's rarely intended that way.

Of course there are evangelists in both camps, who do neither camp any favours. It's unfortunate that the waters are clouded by the fact that formula and it's promotion is big business, compared to breastfeeding where the promotional budget is, errr zero (though maybe that's not strictly true now). I've no idea how to balance that into the equation, but I don't think it' impact can be completely ignored.

I think the premiss of the debate is interesting. Certainly I've encountered women through the years who've been given advice that varies from the weird to the downright wrong and dangerous about breastfeeding, usually - as I said earlier - at a time when they are in pain, struggling and vulnerable so are seeking good advice/help, and all by healthcare professionals who should know better.

Anyway, Molly, as usual, your post is oil on troubled waters. We all know that babyfeeding is, or can be difficult. It's right that - as you said - each case should be taken on it's own merits and treated with kid gloves. There are as many reasons why a woman will chose to formula feed as there are stars in the sky - for a lot of them it's a difficult decision. But, there are some for whom it's down to misinformation and it's those women that need the correct information on which to base their choice - maybe some of newmother's "rich" friends? It's fine to chose either way as long as you have the evidence on which to base your information.

But, if we can't rely on health care professionals for good advice who do we ask? Who do we tell our daughters to ask when they're in difficulties - the best advice & information often comes from other women (step forward Fuschia et al), but as we've seen on this thread sometimes other women can also be woefully misinformed. Sometimes they have a cultural heritage that impacts on their perceptions of best-practice babyfeeding. Until the medical establishment cares to educate and train all it's professionals to the standard that breastfeeding counsellors and lactation consultants are trained to I would counsell any women seeking advice to be very wary of any 'information' given by a HCP without the necessary credentials. Some of it will be right, but some of it won't.

I have no solutions, so now I think maybe I'm rambling a bit. In essence I think it's good to debate, it's bad to personalise. I hope this thread might be useful to some, I suspect it'll be a turn off for others.

In the end whatever we do, we know our children will grow & breastfeeding is just the start - as someone else said, other life experiences are almost sure to have a bigger impact on the people they ultimately become, but if we don't want to be encompassed by a culture that makes the sight of a woman breastfeeding her baby taboo (and in some strata of our society that is already the case) then it's important to stand up for it - even at the risk of offending some of those who have chosen not to breastfeed, or couldn't breastfeed for whatever the reason. It should never be a woman's intention to offend another over her choices, but in pointing out facts when asked, sometimes that's a consequence.

[Lochie]

@ sillywoman, ?In essence I think it's good to debate, it's bad to personalise.? I agree too. Unfortunately it?s almost impossible for each individual woman not to personalise when it comes to the topic of feeding their baby as it is such a highly emotive topic. I am sure that EVERY woman that reads this thread, whether they have commented or not, will recall their own experiences of feeding. These may be positive i.e. loved breastfeeding immensely and/or were perfectly happy bottlefeeding and felt guilt free doing so, middling i.e. struggled to bfeed but succeeded in the end, or indeed negative e.g. immense guilt at having to bottlefeed, or extreme difficulty in bfeeding.

Referring to a point that helenahandbasket made about mental health, I would really like to see the MWs/HVs focus equally on emotionally supporting decision making (re: feeding) for mothers as they do campaigning for the breastfeeding agenda.

To use myself as an example, I had no problem with milk supply, however, I did have a serious problem with latch and a painful episiotomy meant that I was unable to position myself to feed at the breast for weeks after giving birth. When my milk came in it was suggested that I pumped milk by the midwife instead. So I did. I pumped and pumped and pumped. I?d be expressing every 4 hours which meant that effectively I needed to be awake every 2 hours (I needed to feed with the bottle in between each pumping session). This went on. And on and on. For 6 weeks. So for 6 weeks I was effectively awake every 2 hours. The midwives were fully aware of this and continued to push the importance of breastmilk over all else. Even when it was clear I was becoming emotionally vulnerable through lack of sleep, no one ever suggested I stop pumping. Though I tried to put my son to the breast, over engorgement meant a complete inability to latch and no one was there to help me. Though I knew that formula was an option, the overbearing ?breast is best? agenda that was so pushed by the profession meant that I felt too much guilt to consider it.

It was only when I had a complete meltdown and was diagnosed with PND that I ditched the pump. I am really glad that my son had breastmilk for 6 weeks, however, in hindsight I so dearly wish that someone had held my hand and told me that it is not the be all and end all. Because really, it isn?t. My feeding experience didn?t give me PND, but it surely was the straw that broke the camel?s back.

I guess really what I am trying to say, and probably has been said before, is that is VITAL that breastfeeding is contextualised amongst ALL other factors in a new mother?s life. I?d love to see a network that empowers women to feel happy and relaxed about their decision to feed WHICHEVER method they choose. I haven?t read the WHO guidelines but I would imagine that there is no mention of mental health when it comes to prioritising the best feeding option for the baby and mother. If the WHO guidelines are aimed at developing countries, then I would suggest that the guidelines are not so vitally relevant in more westernised countries where there are other factors to consider such as PND (which I believe is an illness found in our developed society and far less prevalent in the third world).