I need a group of breastfeeding and non-breastfeeding mums!

[jennyh]

cuppa tea - love your post, very succint and completely balanced. Spot on. Nothing admirable about making people feel shitty about their decisions and attempting to play a game of one-upmanship.

And yes - far too much time online, good job my formula fed baby is fast asleep and happily dreaming about rabbits or spotty socks rather than the big bottle of nasty formula coming towards her!

:)

[jollybaby]

Jennyh if you would like to read some reputable scientific reports- a good place to start is the WHO website - you'll be able to find all of their large systematic reviews and associated references there. I must say I was a little surprised when I read the review that led to 6 months becoming the recommended period for exclusive breast feeding. The evidence wasn't as compelling as I thought it would be with the only observed benefit for the child being a lower rate of gastrointestinal infections.

[jennyh]

sophiechristophy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Re: evidence showing nutritional benefits of

> breastmilk vs formula:

>

> http://www.bellybelly.com.au/pregnancy/baby-formul

> a

WOW - managed to get half way through, think i might go and slit my wrists now. Thanks for that, what a lovely balanced article in the good spirit of this discussion. it would seem that my daughter has beaten the odds by surviving 6 weeks, still, she may well get scurvy or grow another limb or develop some hideous killing disease in 30 years time. Then again so might smokers, interesting.

[jollybaby]

Yes am not sure I would class that article as 'evidence'. I work in the field of oncology and I read with interest the line that said that breast feeding reduces the risk of lymphoma by x 5-8 . If anyone can find the supporting evidence for that please let me know - all of the papers I came across including a recent large review said the link was unsubstantiated.

[Saila]

here we go - another mum v mum thread :(

why aren't we bored of the same old spats time and time again? reducing us to rage on our sofas despite it being none of our business what other mums do?

we've all made our individual choices. Would we walk up to people in the street and say these things?

please please can you stop passing judgement on other women who are often at a very vulnerable time of their lives

Why are there rarely spats about feeding babies fast food, or bullying or inhaling fumes in the street?

After all, East Dulwich air is 'a very poor alternative' to fresh countryside air.....

[jennyh]

good point, I have eaten an entire sharing bag of giant buttons to spur some kind of surge in endorphins and stave off the feelings of gloom and inadequacy :) If I become obese I wonder what it could do to my daughter.

Speaking of poor air - only since having my baby have I really considered pollution, nothing like being stuck behind a bus trying to cross the road with the exhaust at pram height. Maybe I will fashion some sort of mask to filter out the grubby bits...something to sell to the health conscious parent who resides in this nappy valley.

[jollybaby]

Sorry Saila - will calm down now. From a personal viewpoint this debate had been quite healthy for me as it has encouraged me to actually read some of the papers on breastfeeding and whilst I still accept that 'breast is best - the magnitude of some of the benefits are perhaps smaller than I had presumed. I can only hope that this will relieve some of the pressure as if and when number 2 arrives.

[helena handbasket]

jennyh Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> sophiechristophy Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Re: evidence showing nutritional benefits of

> > breastmilk vs formula:

> >

> >

> http://www.bellybelly.com.au/pregnancy/baby-formul

>

> > a

>

>

> WOW - managed to get half way through, think i

> might go and slit my wrists now. Thanks for that,

> what a lovely balanced article in the good spirit

> of this discussion. it would seem that my

> daughter has beaten the odds by surviving 6 weeks,

> still, she may well get scurvy or grow another

> limb or develop some hideous killing disease in 30

> years time. Then again so might smokers,

> interesting.

*hugs*

It's not worth it jenny. I promise you, soon enough the children will all mix together at school and you will never be able to guess who was bf and who wasn't.

[jennyh]

Surely mine will be the one with type 1 diabetes running around hyperactively wearing pull-up pants on account of the diarrhoea she has due to developing an unhealthy gut. But yes, I've run out of chocolate as well so better stop now.

Stopping now.

[Lochie]

@jennyh - i think its a shame the Oz equivalent of mumsnet put that article on its website.

Would like to think such a website existed to support new mums not draw attention to how 'lethal' formula is - the comment "Bottlefed babies are twice as likely to die from any cause in the first six weeks of life" is REALLY not helpful to any vulnerable mum lacking sleep and debating whether to offer that first bottle to help her get a good 4 hours kip for her own sanity.

@saila - totally agree with you too - what is it with the mums v mums on the milk issue?!!

[srisky]

Salia - agreed!

Jennyh - there is so much more that determines the current and future health of your child than breastfeeding. In the 'western world' where many (not all) are so fortunate to have a reasonable standard of living, other factors such as, passive smoking, the food you go on to feed your child, they way your raise them, the opportunities your provide them, education etc etc will also play their part.

WHO guidance - a good place to start is the WHO website - you'll be able to find all of their large systematic reviews and associated references there. I must say I was a little surprised when I read the review that led to 6 months becoming the recommended period for exclusive breast feeding. The evidence wasn't as compelling as I thought it would be with the only observed benefit for the child being a lower rate of gastrointestinal infections

The above quote is spot on and is why the WHO should not be quoted ad nauseum, as we are not their target audience! The exclusive bf for 6 months is aimed at those living in less developed countries where there is no reliable access to clean water and so giving formula is potentially dangerous, resulting in diarrhoea, which is one of the biggest killers of children in these countries. Also the lack of regular/decent wage may mean that a family can not reliably afford to buy formula and the breast milk would have dried up resulting in the baby potentially starving. Sadly, this may also apply some of the less fortunate in this country - maybe not literally starving but being very undernourished.

[cuppa tea]

"there is so much more that determines the current and future health of your child than breastfeeding. In the 'western world' where many (not all) are so fortunate to have a reasonable standard of living, other factors such as, passive smoking, the food you go on to feed your child, they way your raise them, the opportunities your provide them, education etc etc will also play their part."

This is so true. It's such a long game this parenting thing. Why is it so complicated? I would say that ignoring most 'scientific research' is the best thing mothers could do, whether it is about breastfeeding, formula or anything else. It all has an agenda.

[Fuschia]

Thats not true ... There is evidence linking reduced incidence of adult obesity, heart disease and diabetes to longer exclusive bf

So very relevant to us here in the uk

[srisky]

Fuschia Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Thats not true ... There is evidence linking

> reduced incidence of adult obesity, heart disease

> and diabetes to longer exclusive bf

>

> So very relevant to us here in the uk

These diseases are multifactorial and bf is not the panacea - nothing is.

A bad diet, lack of exercise, smoking, excess alcohol and unfortunate genetics will lead to all of the above and more regardless of whether you breast or formula feed. It's so much more important to discourage these things (can't help genetics and we all have our vices - mine is cake!) than spend 6 months avoiding formula at all costs. The effect of bf is negligable in the face of these of factors.

'Evidence linking' does not mean causation.

[Fuschia]

One of the main difficulties with these studies is to isolate the factors, of course

Because after infant feeding comes childhood nutrition, of course

I will dig out links from my pc when I can because I have spent quite a lot of time looking at this

But just before I go to bed, inthink those talking about the WHO report have missed something

http://www.who.int/nutrition/topics/optimal_duration_of_exc_bfeeding_review_eng.pdf

The data collected was comparing children exclusively breastfed for a minimum of 3m then introduced to comPlementary foods between 3-7m vs those exclusively bf to 6m

So the findings aren't about formula vs breastfeeding at all, but about optimum age for weaning

I am not sure that is understood in some of the comments above ...

[jollybaby]

I can assure you that I didn't miss the point of the WHO systematic review. I know the studies included were looking at duration of exclusive breast feeding rather than simply breast feeding versus formula. I was just surprised that in this review the benefits of a longer period of exclusive breast feeding weren't greater (in my opinion) and for me this may ease the pressure of getting to the magic six months without a drop of anything other than breast milk passing my baby's lips.

Quite interesting to note that in a couple of the studies the babies could have a small volume of formula and still be classed as exclusively breast fed! In most studies the mixed feeding period (ie post exclusive breast feeding) could include the addition of formula as a complementary liquid and so I don't think the results are completely irrelevant in the breast versus formula debate.

This is my final post on this as I have spent far to long ignoring baby JB over the past

[Fuschia]

There is other research into the long term effects though, not picked up by the studies gathered together by WHO, that's all. I have spent a lot if time trying to work out to what extent that research shows causality regarding the reduction in heart disease etc later in life and to what extent it might be more a reflection of a generally healthier lifestyle post weaning

But on balance I came to thd conclusion it wS best to wait to wean.

However while that research is harder to interpret, that doesn't apply to the research into the benefits of bf overall

Coming back to the duration of exclusive bf, I note the scientific advisory committee on nutrition are sticking with the 6m advice re introduction of gluten, post the flurry of newspaper articles not long ago

http://www.sacn.gov.uk/pdfs/draft_smcn_minutes_19th_january_2011_draft_3.pdf

[supergolden88]

I suggest we put breastfeeding mums and bottlefeeding mums in two groups and then have a bit of mud wrestling.

Why is it that some breastfeeding mums go to such lengths to prove that breastfeeding is better and then try to make other mums feel bad about themselves?

article

Breastfeeding is by far the best option but it is that - an option and a choice (for us in UK at least not the world over). If a mum chooses not to breastfeed, or tries it and then decides it's not for her that's her choice and not for anyone else to judge. We can't bully mums into breastfeeding.

edit to say I know that a large number of mums try very hard to breastfeed but due to various issues don't manage to - and I know that for them it does not feel like a choice.

[cuppa tea]

Fuschia Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Thats not true ... There is evidence linking

> reduced incidence of adult obesity, heart disease

> and diabetes to longer exclusive bf

>

> So very relevant to us here in the uk

Yes it is true. If you take it to extremes and say a mother breastfeeds her baby for 6 months and then smacks and berates him all through his toddler/childhood years I am pretty sure this would cancel out any positive effects of breastfeeding. The psychological and physical damage from negligent parenting would certainly affect his health.

[Fuschia]

I am not at all fussed what other people do ... but i do dislike it when the facts come under attack. It's quite fine not to breastfeed, of course it is... but not necessary to then bash the women who do breastfeed. Same with any other choice. The SAHM thing is one such.

[cuppa tea]

The problem I have with 'facts' is that we will never really know how true they really are. Often they are used as a manipulation tool.

Back to the original post though...how on earth do you have a discussion about breastfeeding without 'which is best' becoming an issue?! It is all so connected is it not?

[anna75]

[decided that life is too short to get involved in this "discussion". good luck to ALL mothers]

[supergolden88]

Anna I have been following the thread closely since the first post. And I am commenting on the whole thread. I am not sure what you mean though about bottle feeding mothers feeling more confident...

Just who is bashing women who DO breastfeed Fuschia?

[EmmaCC]

I bet in 10 years time new mothers are being told that formula is nutritionally better for their children!?!

I think there is SOME truth in the argument that breastfed babies generally develop well etc due to the fact that "generally" it is middle class mothers who breasfeed.. they are the same mothers who go on to read to their child every night and feed them healthy food..

I'm sure if I searched hard enough I could find an article on the internet now saying forumla is best!

By the way..I breastfed my first (now nearly 3 and CONSTANTLY ill even though breastfed for 8 months) and am still breastfeeding my second but for god's sake, discussions like this make me really angry...bringing up children is really HARD work, whether you're breastfeeding or not...can't we stop bashing each other over the heads on this subject and give each other a pat on the back for all the hard work we're doing and for the individual choices we make for our own lives!!!

[supergolden88]

re: EmmaCC 's post

what she said!

and same here I breastfed my first and my second and if I ever had a third (cue hysterical laughter) I would breastfeed again...