I need a group of breastfeeding and non-breastfeeding mums!

[Saffron]

ratty Wrote:

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> Are you all ganging up on someone?

Why do you ask? Are you offering yourself as a choice?

;-)

[Ruth_Baldock]

Saffron: You said it better than I ever could, hear hear.

[Fuschia]

Great post saffron

Having struggled with breastfeeding my most recent baby, I have the utmost sympathy for those who give up breastfeeding due to lack of support

But that doesn't mean we have to pretend that breastfeeding isn't an infinitely superior form of nutrition for our babies, or to be more precise, formula is a very poor alternative from a nutritional and immunological point of view

[Belle]

It's not black and white as we all know - sometimes the support is there but a struggling mum needs an instant solution, and doesn't have the emotional and physical werewithal to keep trying. if she has to use formula for either the short term, while bf is established, or opts to use it permanently, it's probably helpful to think of it as a 'good' nutritional option as opposed to breast milk being 'excellent' - rather than the idea that it's a 'poor alternative' which could be quite upsetting to a mum who may not have made her decision lightly (I know I didn't).

[jollybaby]

Fuschia Wrote:

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>

> But that doesn't mean we have to pretend that

> breastfeefing isn't an infinitely superior form ov

> nutrition for our babies, or to be more precise,

> formula is a very poof alternative from a

> nutritional and immunological point of view

Unfortuntely it's that sort of comment that adds to the guilt for women who have difficulty and decide to stop breast feeding. Whilst I accept that 'breast is best' I wouldn't necessarily describe formula as a 'very poor alternative'- But I suppose everyone interprets risks and benefits differently. Miss Jb is still being breast fed at 9 months but probably only because I had a relatively easy breast feeding 'journey'. I am sure that if I had had multiple episodes of thrush, mastitis etc I would have stopped by now

[Polly D]

We all know this is an emotive subject, and hopefully emc's discussion group will have a healthy debate.

What I find interesting is that many sole breastfeeders appear to feel they are pressured into introducing formula (esp re weight gain for baby), whereas formula/mixed feeders often talk about (me included) the guilt of doing so. So I see what new mother is getting at on that point.

[Ruth_Baldock]

I see your point, Polly. I was pressured into giving my son formula, then made to feel guilty when I did. Then when I stopped mixed-feeding, kept being reminded that he wasn't 'exclusively breastfed'. You're definitely damned if you do and damned if you don't. That's probably why it's so difficult to discuss breastfeeding, really- someone always ends up feeling offended.

[Fuschia]

jollybaby Wrote:

>

> Unfortuntely it's that sort of comment that adds

> to the guilt for women who have difficulty and

> decide to stop breast feeding. Whilst I accept

> that 'breast is best' I wouldn't necessarily

> describe formula as a 'very poor alternative'-

The WHO recommend milk from the mother

Milk from another mother

then formula comes in third

and I'm afraid the more you research it, the more you realise just what a complex substance breastmilk is, and how many benefits there are to breastfeeding. I appreciate it's depressing to hear it if you didn't manage to breast feed.

But I don't get cross at SAHMs just because I work! I am aware of the research about what is best for small children, but i do what I have to do. I don't feel guilty, but nor do i deny the facts. We just do our best, noone can ask more. Nothing to feel guilty about.

[cuppa tea]

The guilt over not breastfeeding is for the individual to come to terms with. If breast milk is nutritionally better then it is good to know that and should inspire new mums and mums to be to continue through the tough bits. Lets face it, everyone has trouble at the beginning. It can be very very tough. When my little one was throwing up blood from my nipples and I was stamping my foot on the floor in pain and on antibiotics for mastitis, I needed to know that I was continuing for a reason. That there would be so many benefits for my baby. We can't tip toe around because it may make some people uncomfortable or have guilt issues. It is sad when women, probably through lack of support, don't continue. The only way to increase that support and help more women to breastfeed is to keep peddling the positive messages about breastfeeding, annoying as that may be for some. If formula is just fine by everybody, then the support won't continue.

[jollybaby]

I'm not denying the facts. I am pro breast feeding. I just felt uncomfortable with your choice of language. It reminds me of when formula was described as damaging at the breast feeding workshop (with very little supporting information of the benefits of breast milk and potential downsides of formula feeding). I wouldn't come on here and say that working mothers are damaging their children. And as for the WHO list it could continue 1. Breast milk 2. Someone else's breast milk 3. Formula 4. Dehydration 5. Depressed mother and then maybe formula wouldn't be such a poor alternative.

[Ruth_Baldock]

Cuppa; so so true. I remember wanting to stop because 'people have died from less, I am going to die, I am being drained...' (5days pp, incredibly melodramatic, and nothing was 'wrong' he was just feeding every 2.5 hours for 40 minutes a time...) but everyone kept reminding me it was worth it and to keep plugging away, and I knew how good breastmilk was for my son, so it DID keep me going. If all I had been hearing was 'meh, it's more or less the same as formula' then i would have definitely, DEFINITELY stopped.

P.S. It DID get better, everyone was right. I now wish my son, at 18mo, was still nursing tbh. Such an easy way of calming him down; my boobs ensured that I didn't have to experience getting up at 5:30am when baby decided morning had most definitely broken...

[Polly D]

cuppa tea Wrote:

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"It is sad when women, probably through lack of support, don't continue."

Why is it sad? Please don't assume that not breastfeeding is through a lack of support.

[catgirl]

Just to add to the debate:

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/families/article6718276.ece

[Ruth_Baldock]

Oh, not Joan Wolf. Really, when will she give up with it all? I believe she had a book about breastfeeding being anti-feminist or something.

[cuppa tea]

Polly D Wrote:

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> cuppa tea Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> "It is sad when women, probably through lack of

> support, don't continue."

>

> Why is it sad? Please don't assume that not

> breastfeeding is through a lack of support.

Well I think it is sad if a women can't continue to breastfeed. It's my personal opinion. I have, in the end, really enjoyed breast feeding. There are so many benefits other than just nutritional. If it's not lack of support, (domestic and professional) why else would you not try in the first place, or not continue?

[Belle]

Oh yes I remember that article. I do think helen rumbelow is a gd journalist, so was interested to read it. And do think Wolf's last point food for thought:

?People never say ?don?t take your baby on a car journey?, even though the risk of a car accident is far greater than not breastfeeding. But when it comes to a mother?s time, nothing we can ask is too much.

?Let?s think about what would happen if we asked fathers to do this, if there were somehow evidence that babies who are looked after by their fathers at home for six months do better. We would see a lot more critiquing of the science, a lot more people saying the benefit is marginal, a greater reluctance to offer the advice.?

tee hee - can you imagine if it was the dads having to bf?? (am trying to lighten the tone here a little!)

[jollybaby]

Maybe I am after the impossible - finding a way of promoting breast feeding without making those who formula feed feel like a substandard mother . This is just a very emotive subject for me - having suffered PND and switched from breast to formula to breast to formula and then back to breast again. Yes the guilt is my problem - I very rarely bottle fed in public as I didn't want people to see me doing it - but it certainly didn't help.

Motherhood is fun hey . . . The going back to work guilt/stress is the next hurdle.

[cuppa tea]

jollybaby Wrote:

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> Maybe I am after the impossible - finding a way of

> promoting breast feeding without making those who

> formula feed feel like a substandard mother . This

> is just a very emotive subject for me - having

> suffered PND and switched from breast to formula

> to breast to formula and then back to breast

> again. Yes the guilt is my problem - I very

> rarely bottle fed in public as I didn't want

> people to see me doing it - but it certainly

> didn't help.

>

> Motherhood is fun hey . . . The going back to work

> guilt/stress is the next hurdle.

So what made you keep going back to breast feeding? Guilt? And are you happy you stuck with breastfeeding?

[jollybaby]

Am not sure what kept me going back . . . I'd like to say that it was the well recognised health benefits but have a sneaky suspicion that guilt did play a big part - almost wanting to do things 'properly' to make up for those horrible early days and what I perceived as my failings. Goodness i didn't mean to get so deep!

And to answer your second question- yes I am pleased I went back to breast feeding - I enjoy it and love the convenience but perhaps unsuprisingly am not sure it has done much for the guilt side of things!

[Polly D]

Cuppa tea: how about choosing to mix feed so that the dad can have a hand in feeding his child too? And so an exhausted mum can sleep for, say, 3 hours in a row?! If one finds expressing just doesn't work.

But I'm not having a go, please don't think that. Like I said: it's an emotive subject to debate and is all about personal choice. We all have had similar experiences through becoming mums I'm sure, just not the same.

What I find sad is people being made to feel guilty for making a choice. Whichever choice that is. There's so many more choices to make, this is just the start!

[jennyh]

I wish i had managed to stay out of this because it really does just mess my head up, but it just draws me in! I just wanted to know what the research was that backed up the theory that formula is a very poor nutritional alternative to breastmilk? Considering that the medical research that goes into developing formula is so extensive and worth such a lot of money to the companies that produce it...you would think they had got something right!?

I don't doubt that breast is best and I completely agree it is the best choice but I am genuinely interested about why formula is so nutritionally poor. My 16 week old daughter is on formula and she has doubled her birthweight, she can roll over both ways, she holds her hands out to toys and to be picked up, she can hold her head up brilliantly and she laughs and smiles constantly, she is developing brilliantly. Granted she had more digestive problems in the early days and she suffers from colds but as two GPs have said to me - she is building her own immune system rather than relying on a borrowed one from me. Then again I know loads of breastfed babies who suffer from regular sniffles and coughs so not sure where the super strength immune system kicks in...

If breastmilk from another mother was the best second option then why is it not more readily available, other than to premature babies? If it was then I would have probably considered it as I desperately wanted my daughter to have the benefits of the antibodies but is wasnt to be (although as I mentioned above, why do breastfed babies get poorly too? genuine question...)

I am actually quite tired of the notion that there is always a way to successfully breastfeed, I completely agree that everyone should be encouraged to and that support from midwives and health visitors is vital but someone needs to also tell new mothers that formula is not evil or bad because too many babies end up poorly because mothers are so reluctant to offer formula when they are dangerously underweight. Similarly too many mothers end up depressed and on the verge of breaking down because of the deeply distressing emotive issue. Like everything, it is a balance. I am delighted that my girl is a chubby little thing and that she is very strong, very alert and very happy.

Oh I really do need to stop now! I could go on forever but would probably never make a point!

[Fuschia]

One thing that never ceases to amaze is that even now I can stumble across benefits of bf I didn't know about previously

From my recent Internet history

Something about intestinal flora - http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=89727716908

ANC something about jaw development http://www.brianpalmerdds.com/bfeed_oralcavity.htm

[cuppa tea]

I am not sure 'formula bashing' is the way to go either to be honest. Saying it is the same as breast milk also doesn't help things. I certainly felt I could have done with more support for breastfeeding...and I did get loads of help compared to most. I had the naive assumption that it was a totally natural process and there would be no reason I wouldn't be doing it. How wrong I was!! Now looking back I think what I personally needed was to see women breastfeeding real life babies, not pretend to do it with some doll after sitting (8 months pregnant) in a breastfeeding workshop for 4 hours! I really don't know what the answer is.

Polly D - I think it's all a balancing act. A bottle of formula to relieve an exhausted mum is not going to have any detrimental impact. If you are about to chuck your baby out the window through lack of sleep then it has got to be better to have some SMA! (Though I did find that sleeping with my babies solved my sleep deprivation problems. I am amazed that women can get out of bed, make up a bottle of formula, sit in a chair, feed the baby and then get it back to sleep in a cot....that is ALOT of work!) I get concerned about 'dissing' breast feeding too I suppose, as a way to alleviate guilt from those who could't/didn't. It has to be perceived to be important so that support for it also is important. Guilt seems to be an inevitable part of mothering unfortunately, but we just have to all deal with things that we have not been able to achieve. Noone can make you feel guilty...you do that to yourself!

And this is me who wasn't going to get into a debate about breastfeeding, HA!

And also I am totally neglecting the kids by spending too much time on the internet, which is probably also FAR worse than feeding them formula!! I may have breastfed, but I am making plenty of guilt enducing mess ups now they are bigger!

[Fuschia]

iPhone = surf and feed baby simultaneously :-)

[sophiechristophy]

Re: evidence showing nutritional benefits of breastmilk vs formula:

http://www.bellybelly.com.au/pregnancy/baby-formula