Camberwell Grove - road closure / opening (Lounged)

[Mr Bojangles]

Yes they - the residents - looked silly and selfish because they had no credible argument to keep the road opening. Someone actually mentioned keeping out the "boom boom" car as a reason.

That's not posh bashing but a reflection of how the residents looked at the meeting - the one you weren't at..

Yes pls lounge, I'm also bored

[Alan Dale]

And why did you enjoy watching them being made to look silly and selfish? I think it's because they live in a posher street than you do.

As for lounging I think that's premature. We need to establish whether the posh lot are being unjustifiably victimised or whether there really is purely an issue with the bridge or whether its a bit of both...

[downsouth]

@ AD - I really don't think this is a class war thing. Come on now! From a non ED/Camberwell perspective this is an example of the all too rare application of common sense. For the greater good and fair on the othe residents of that part of Camberwell who were/are currently contending with greater volumes of traffic.

If some people are delighting in 'posh bashing' that's their pretty sad preserve.

[Alan Dale]

You are right DS.

There is an important underlying issue which should not be undermined by people delighting in having a go a the residents of CG.

[Administrator]

Lounged

[Mr Bojangles]

-- moved topic --

[Maurice]

I feel much more relaxed now that we're lounged. Have a go, Chav. I'm feeling kind hearted.

[*Bob*]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with 'posh bashing'. It's an English tradition - long may it continue.

[Mr Bojangles]

Yes there is nothing wrong with poking fun and having a bit of banter (and Maurice your always a good sport in this regard which is also a British trait)

But what is annoying is labelling an important issue as posh bashing, particularly where you have limited knowledge or involvement.

AD: If you say that delighting in having a go at CG residents undermines an important issue, wouldn't you also agree that this is the same for labelling the same issue as posh bashing?

[Maurice]

If we're fair, it's doled (oops) out in equal measure.

Tim Nice But Dim v Vicky Pollard.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

Posh bashing may be fun, but doesn't really compare to the oppression of the poor that the elite have enjoyed for longer than they have been chasing foxes around the countryside.

[Alan Dale]

That's the point though.

The old left backbench was appeased by the hunting ban because it sticks a finger up at the elite the leadership were happy to allow this as it didn't really upset the applecart.

Those people should be lobbying for an increased minimum wage or grants for higher education or something.

The idea that the imbalance in Camberwell is somehow redressed by not letting the residents of Camberwell Grove close their bridge is a little optimistic.

[lozzyloz]

I took a pleasant walk up CG yesterday. It's not all posh. There is a good selection of lower cost accommodation as well as workshop/offices all co-existing together.

No need to posh bash. This idea of the rich oppressing the poor is surely out dated and possibly a bit too inward looking. Surely it's US, the Western world oppressing those in the developing world with unfair trade deals, mineral exploitation, military oppression etc.

[Maurice]

Yes we're very eclectic and peace loving.

Chav's world of rich bad poor good is a bit simplistic isn't it? Perhaps you are right about the Western world's general pillaging, though I think you leave out all the good bits we've contributed. Of course that's not the purpose of far left website fodder.

Besides, it seems to me in piecing together what I can of your life Chav, you've been anything but exploited. Indeed you've exploited a system to provide you with plenty.

[Mr Bojangles]

No-one was trying to redress any imbalance in Camberwell. People just wanted a fair distribution of traffic around a particular area. It was a very local issue.

AD, you've just got the wrong end of the stick on this. You should have come to meeting and then you'd have got more of a sense of where people were coming from; 350 people wanting to make sure that common sense prevailed and it did. And that is something to be pleased about. A community coming together for the greater good. It had nothing to do with some outdated concept of posh v the poor.

Maurice's right about those other Camberwell forums. It doesn't help that there is often an anti-Camberwell Grove theme expressed on these forums and that does come across as a bit of them and us attidude. Perhaps, that's influenced your view of this issue.

[Alan Dale]

I accept that some people want the road reopened, and even that potentially more people want it reopened than would like to see it closed.

I also think that a number of people jumped on the reopening band wagon out of spite towards the residents. I think that your post, BJ, about finding fun in making them look silly and selfish was particularly telling.

As for getting the wrong end of the stick then I also accept that there is a serious underlying issue that got a bit muddied amidst all the posh baiting and the class war but I personally never lost sight of my own agenda which is to encourage the pedestrianisation of Camberwell Grove.

That's not to say I converted anyone either -perhaps I should have gone to the meeting. That would have done it.

[Mr Bojangles]

I never said I found "fun in making them look silly and selfish". That's just misrepresenting what I said. I think you are looking for a little post-event justification for your own view about posh bashing which hasn't exactly found much support. Perhaps, your interpretation of this issue says more about your own issues then my motivations.

About 95% of the people who turned up to the meeting wanted the road re-opened. You shouldn't confuse a couple of light hearted posts on this forum as representative of the affected community. People simply wanted the road opened not out of spite but mainly because of the issue of traffic displacement and also people use CG as an important through road. Now it may be that the road is closed or subject to further restrictions in the future (e.g. made one way) but it will be done pursuant to a proper and full consultation on traffic management in the area and not at the whim of a minority interest group.

As for my comments, I said that I found the meeting fun because it was. I was pleased with the result and also because the residents were seen in their true colours (i.e. selfish). They could have been students, gypsies, squatters, working class, middle class for all I care. This was just a self interested group against the wider community. You seem to think that this group is posh and the wider community is poor. Firstly, that is not an accurate representation of the people who turned up to the meeting, and secondly, even if that's right, seeking the opening of a public road for the benefit of the wider community is not posh bashing. I can't believe that you can't accept that.

As I've said before, if you had turned up at the meeting, I don't think we'd be having this conversation. Also, your "agenda" would have a bit more credibility.

You don't live anywhere near CG and I'm assuming you walk up it what, once a week? So, out of interest, why are you pursuing an agenda of pedestrianising CG? And please don't cut and paste something from one of regeneru's post. Give me some good reasons as to why in particular CG should be pedestrianised.

Really, if you are concerned about Camberwell issues, surely there are other more important issues to be pursuing?

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

How do you think the British/western elite were so good at exploiting the rest of the planet?

They'd practised on their own poor for centuries, and yes I do agree that we get it a bit easier in some ways now that globalisation allows the elite to outsource their exploitation, but as vanguard to the elite class, Thatcher realised they had to destroy the gains we had fought hard for in order to do that, and while destroying the power and concessions we had struggled for she told us there was no such thing as class.

So where did it go?

The middle class are visible and being chased by all the grey political parties. The elite class are visible by their increased wealth, but the working class have been divided and conquered. Marginalised and backgrounded. Set against members of other oppressed groups, each being told their lack of power over their own lives or access to dwindling resources is the other's fault.

But I have hope. I believe there will be a rise in working class consciousness with more access to alternative media and direct action and all those who doubt the ability of the underdog to rise up may be surprised by how fast the masses can wake up from their stupor.

[Alan Dale]

Good luck with the revolution Chav.

Keep backtracking BJ but you can't reasonably deny your spite laden earlier posts.

Glad to hear you have been taking notice of Regeneguru. He's definitely the man.

Here's the link you didn't want me to paste - thanks for the heads up:

http://www.se5forum.org/forum/index.php/topic,589.0.html

Sorry!

[Mr Bojangles]

Al,

That's a bit of a cop out. Come on you can do better. Don't duck out now its just getting interesting.

My comments weren't out of spite. The link you post underlines that my issue has been about traffic management so thanks for that. On the other hand, labelling people as posh bashers... when you've not had any meaningful involvment on this issue

My reference to regeneru was not meant to be mean that I was somehow afraid of the link but that I didn't want you to give me some generic all cars are bad response.

So, come on, give me some good solid reasons as to why you are so keen in particular to pedestrianise CG and why this is your "agenda"?

You thinking that regeneru is the man gives an idea as to why you've waded into this debate and called for pedestrianisation without fully understanding the issues / consequences. Regeneru's suggestions (which I have some sympathy with) are a little bit more sophisticated than that and he accepts that it is not appropriate for him to be commenting on this issue because its not his area. It would be nice if you did the same.

I think its great that you care and get involved in Camberwell issues; I've seen your posts on windsor walk and denmark hill station. But don't pursue an agenda in area where you don't live unless you are willing understand all the issue and come up and participate in residents meetings and council meetings. At the very least you'll understand people's motivations.

If I ever blindly comment on issues affecting your area, then I would expect to be given a hard time. But I wouldn't because its not fair on the people who live there.

[Maurice]

Chave I know many a hardened soul who tried your route during the 60's. They won't be interested in joining your revolution, though some may still hold a flicker and finance it, as they are now quite minted.

You see they learned early in life the hard truth about championing the poor classes. As soon as you sound your battle cry for revolution you'll note they are idling about and not terribly keen on making the effort. They, like you, find it better to live off the rest of us.

[Alan Dale]

BJ you are trying to undermine my calls for pedestrianisation by saying that I was previously distracted from the real deabte by your poshbashing and by saying that I should stay out of it because I don't live in the street. In truth you are only intersted in silencing those who don't share your opinion about the reopening of the road by any means at your disposal.

I regularly use Camberwell Grove as a pedestrian. It's lovely. It will be less lovely when the traffic returns especially if there is a traffic light.

I would prefer to see the bridge stay closed and would extend that to say I'd like to see it turned into a pedestrian and cycle route only.

If such a change has a detrimental impact on traffic in your road then I would happily support your campaign to have your road converted to pedestrian and cycle use only too.

Really glad you enjoyed my posts on Windsor Walk.

[Mr Bojangles]

No, I'm saying that you should come and join the real debate at meetings and not comment blindly on forums. Its an affliction with forums that Maurice alludes to regularly.

I don't have a problem with your view per se (i'd happily do away with cars) but I do have a problem with the fact that your view is not based on any proper consulation / participation or having any appreciation for the persons affected by the road closure. I'd be fine for CG to be closed but only after proper consultation and a joined up strategy for dealing traffic in the area but I don't want it closed just because a few people like it without cars.

All streets are nicer without cars; that's not a reason for closing a particular road.

[Alan Dale]

How do you eat an elephant? One piece at a time.

People who post on forums about the inadequacy of posting on forums should either start up a movement against the proliferation of internet based discussion or keep their opinions to themselves.

[Mr Bojangles]

Didn't you comment on this thread that you agreed with Maurice's view on forums

The analogy of eating an elephant is a little bit simplistic when you are talking about traffic management in a particular area.

Anyway, good luck with your campaign. It's well intended, even if a little bit misguided in this particular case.