St johns and St Clements bulge class

[cff9]

Hi, I was wondering if anyone else is in this situation....

We are a long way from St Johns & St Clements so presumed we wouldn't get an offer and therefore didn't look round. But we've just received a phone offer and apparently they have decided to have a bulge class this year. We had to make a quick decision so accepted as it's much closer to us than Bessemer Grange which is what we'd been offered.

But I'm having a bit of a wobble about it - I hear it's not very creative, and the ofsted isn't great. I know that I shouldn't base a decision on only that, but at the mo that's all I've got to go on. I know of some parents with older children who have now left there and they were pretty happy with it but that was a while ago....

Does anyone know much about the school, have kids there or know of people with kids there?

The decision isn't helped by Bessemer sounding lovely, but it is a long walk from us....

Thankyou so much for any advice....

[mrs.lotte]

I have to say that I'm glad you are wavering and continuing to give BG serious consideration as it is clearly on the up and an further influx of engaged parents can only help that. I think it is totally bizarre that the council sees fit to bulge st john's right next to a Goose Green bulge which is likely to leave empty spaces at GG and BG. Hardly supporting their progress and drive to attract local parents. Furthermore I had understood that st.John's was to bulge next year; who is going to do that now?

Sorry for that rant ccf9. I know parents who are happy at both schools, go with your gut. Good luck.

[cff9]

maybe I got it wrong and it's not due to a bulge year? A friend said they were doing a bulge and that's why we'd all suddenly been offered places.... I can't think of another reason that they'd suddenly have so many places to offer. Apparently this year has been particularly bad with so many people not getting anything near to them, so perhaps they brought forward their plans for next year?

It's all happened very fast so I'm not at all clear what's gone on....

[Coach Beth]

If I were you I would definately go look around Bessemer again, talk to parents there, talk to the Head. I think it's a school on the up. If you prefer it to St. John's, then it sounds like you should stay with it. There are several parents who post here who go to Bessemer Grange and love the school. Do a search for the thread relating to the Bessemer Grange Fun Day.

Last year, we were offered a place at St.John's - and I turned it down because we were very happy at Goose Green (I like the Headteacher, the ethos and diversty at the school). And I'm very happy with the decision. I've got friends with kids at St. Johns and it seems ok as a school although I've heard concerns with the expense of the after-school clubs and lack of variety/choice in after-school clubs. But every parent will have issues with whatever school their child goes to.

Anyway, I think you need to go with your gut. Meeting with the Headteacher of each school should help you ALOT! It's the Headteacher that sets the standard for the school - they will be the one who will be leading the school and responding to parental concerns. That's what I've found anyway - and if I didn't think the Headteacher was interested in my concerns as a parent or in my child, I wouldn't pick the school. So book an appointment to meet the Head of Bessemer and then the Head of St. John's! If you change your mind, hopefully you will still get a place at Bessemer. Although I've heard it's becoming quite a popular choice now.

[venice]

St John's and St Clement's school sent out these questions and answers today to parents

1. Why is this extra class necessary?

Southwark has a population bulge for children born in 2006/2007. Without extra classes there would be many children without school places for Sept 2011. Several local schools are taking ?bulge? classes for Reception 2011, including Goose Green and Dulwich Village Infants School.

2. Why has the decision been made so late in the school year?

The Local Authority was only certain shortly before May half term that the extra class was absolutely necessary.

3. Who has made the decision to take an additional class at our school, and what were the reasons?

The decision was made by the St John?s and St Clement?s School Governors (a full list of the governors can be found at the end of the FAQs)

The governors said yes to the request for a ?bulge? class because it is local children who would have been without a school place, and the school exists to provide education for children in our local community. The governors were confident that the school had sufficient space, could appoint a high quality class teacher, and could continue to provide increasingly high standards of teaching & learning and pastoral care.

Over a year ago, the governors discussed in detail the possibility of taking a future bulge class, and agreed in principle that we would do this if asked. It wasn?t until now that Southwark Local Authority made a formal request to us though. We believe strongly that it?s the right decision for the community and the right decision for the school.

4. Why weren't parents consulted on this decision?

The role of the Governors is to take collective decisions on the overall strategic direction of the school and how to respond to developments of this kind. There are 3 elected parent governors on the Governing body and in total 7 of our Governors have children in the school, so parental views have been a considerable part of the discussion which led to the decision.

5. What have the current pupils been told?

The pupils have been told about the additional class. Miss Kemp has explained that ?there are lots more 4 year olds living in this area than in previous years, so the council have asked our school to have another Reception class in September. There are going to be some changes to the Reception and Year 1 classrooms which the builders are going to complete over the summer holidays?.

6. Does the school really have classroom and playground space for these additional children?

Yes. Our school has plenty of space. The governors will be considering how best to use the facilities and space that the school has, including use of the main playground.

7. Where will the 30 extra children be accommodated?

The current 1B classroom will become the additional Reception classroom for Sept 2011. The Breakfast Club room will be converted into a Year 1 classroom. The dining hall will be modified to accommodate additional children at lunchtimes and to provide space for Breakfast Club and cookery activities. Most of the changes to the building will be carried out over the summer holidays.

8. Will the new arrangements still allow all children to enjoy the same high quality Reception environment?

Yes. The generous, self-contained physical environment for Reception - where children can flow freely between classroom and playground - is a very positive feature of the children?s first year at our school. The additional classroom will be adjacent to the existing classrooms, joined by the same corridor, and the movement of the children between classroom and playground will retain the same informality and freedom that the current arrangements afford.

9. What will happen to the Reception playground?

The Reception playground will benefit from considerable modifications, including putting down a soft play surface and building a new, fixed climbing frame. We are making careful plans for slightly different arrangements to avoid congestion for children and parents at drop-off and pick-up times.

10. Will the extra class fit in as they move up through the school?

Yes. We are lucky that our school has a lot of space. Some of the modifications that are being planned are to the first floor, in order to accommodate the larger year group when it becomes Year 2.

[venice]

and the rest of the questions....

11. Who will pay for all the changes that will need to be made to the buildings?

The school will receive additional money from Southwark Local Authority to make all the necessary changes. Southwark Education wants us to make sure these changes make ?permanent improvements to the school environment?, so they will benefit many more pupils in the future.

12. Won?t we need a new class teacher?

Yes. We are delighted to have already appointed a new teacher to teach in Foundation Stage from Sept 2011. Over the new few weeks the senior management team will be considering what additional support staff will also be needed.

13. Is the school going to have 3 classes in all future Reception year-groups?

No. This is a one-off, and there are no plans to move to a permanent 3-form entry.

14. Will Breakfast Club continue to operate?

Yes. Breakfast Club will continue as normal, but will be located in the dining hall.

15. How will the extra children be catered for at lunchtimes?

We have plans to upgrade the kitchen and dining hall arrangements. The movement of children in, through, and out of lunchtimes will be carefully planned.

16. Will the quality of learning and pastoral care be diminished by having a year group of 90?

No. We have appointed a very capable new class teacher; we will add appropriate levels of support staff. Other schools that have taken bulge classes have seen no negative impact on the children?s learning experience or pastoral care.

17. What admissions criteria have been used to award the additional 30 places for Sept ?11?

Children have been awarded places for Sept 2011 using the usual St John?s and St Clement?s admissions criteria.

18. Will the extra class make it harder to get places in the school in 2 or 3 years time if there are more than the usual numbers of siblings taking places?

It is true that there will probably be a higher number of sibling places allocated as younger brothers and sisters of the extra 30 children reach school age. The school will monitor this as closely as we are able and will endeavour to keep interested parents informed about the potential impact on places.

19. How are all these changes being managed?

A special committee of governors is overseeing the strategic plans; this group includes senior and class teachers, clergy and parents. A management group within the school will do the detailed operational planning over the next few weeks.

20. To whom should I speak if I have further questions or concerns?

The governors will be hosting a Parents? Forum on Tuesday 28th June 3:30pm to which all parents are welcome.

You can also email the governors at [email protected], speak directly to governors in person, or drop a note labelled for the governors into the school office.

If you are not sure who the governors are, their names and photographs can be found on the wall in the school entrance lobby.

[cactus]

Coach Beth

You comment on the 'startling lack of diversity at St John's in comparison with other local schools in the area'

The school has a very mixed intake across all years, no different to any of the other local schools in my opinion,

what a mis-informed statement.

[Coach Beth]

Well, I have done the pick up at the school several times for a friend and was just reflecting my own observations as an outsider. However, I do take your point and I certaintly haven't carried out a survey or looked at the statistical data on intake - sometimes going on observation can be mis-leading and I apologise for any offense caused.

[fivestar]

We are st johns parents and very happy with the school. Our son loves it there, is thriving and has lovely friends. The school works hard to foster caring relationships between the children and it seems a very happy place. He is also learning lots. I don't know about how creative or otherwise it is compared to anywhere else but it seems to me they do lots of exciting and interesting things. The newish head teacher is fantastic and full of great ideas.

For the record I too would challenge the suggestion that there is a lack of diversity at the school. It simply isn't true.

As for cost/ variety of after school clubs - there are now lots more clubs than there used to be and as far as I am aware the costs are voluntary contribution (there is an amount suggested).

If you can get a quick tour of the school then do that.

I hope you and your child will be very happy wherever you end up.

[mumof3girlies]

Our two eldest girls are at St Johns, the eldest in year 4, we have always been really happy with the school, and most importantly for us they love going to school and are really happy there, I think they learn well because they are happy. I chose the school on the basis that the school had a lovely atmosphere and the children who showed us around in 2005 were lovely and polite. The head now does the school tours however.

I have friends with kids in other local schools, Lyndhurst, Heber, Ivydale and I think talking to them the standards are pretty much the same, as for creativity St J now has a dedicated art wing/room opened a couple of years ago and also have recently employed in the last year or so an art teacher who does some beautiful art projects for the children, recently the year 4 children had a day out to Nunhead cemetery and commenced an extensive project on their inspiration at the cemetery (as their dad is an artist it's very important to us). I am particularly impressed with how much the school makes good use of London and everything on offer, there are at least 2 trips per term to places like the transport museum, British museum etc.

One of the things I have been most relieved about St Johns is the care and friendships between the year groups, bullying is handled swiftly and efficiently and the children are really encouraged to be kind to each other.

Definately go with your gut feeling, I think the distance to school is key - it means you will make friendships with local families too, we recently moved and had a real struggle finding a house near to school and be able to walk to school still, we eventually did and our girls love being near all their friends and I guess as they get older and start venturing out on their own more this will be even more important..

Good luck!!

[Cora]

For the record Bessemer Grange is also having a bulge class!...So that's St Johns, Goose Green, Bessemer, Dulwich Village...alot of bulges!

I have just turned down a place at Dulwich Village as we are so happy with Bessemer, but if you are happy with St Johns being near will make life easier!

[mrs.lotte]

Good grief - seriously, who is left to bulge next year?

[craigy]

Are they really 120 places short to need 4 bulge classes in such close proximity.. Very thankful I got a place this year.. Has Dog Kennel Hill ever bulged and surely that is the only one left for next year if it hasn't..

No pearls of wisdom for which school to chose as it's a very individual choice and one parents great school will not necessarily be anothers.. Go to the schools and get a feel for them to make your choice.. Good luck..

[Fuschia]

I think mobile classrooms will become a possibility

[Mellors]

Horniman also bulged this year, and Fairlawn and Heber did last year.

Ivydale next year maybe?

[Cora]

It makes me nervous for secondary school when all these bulges at Primary need to feed into the existing schools.

[cff9]

thankyou so much for all your advice. I did the walk to Bessemer yesterday and it's about 45 minutes, which won't be fun in the winter, and I don't drive. But I've got a look round there on Friday and will try to get a look round St Johns too.

I've heard such fantastic things this weekend about both schools that in the end it might just come down to St Johns being a shorter distance.

Thanks also for the reassurance re creative stuff at St Johns - I was basing it on hearsay, and that can easily be out of date or misguided. I realise I was basically asking for reassurance for the decision we'd made - and like you've said it is a personal thing, I just knew so little about the school - feel like I know more now, and really keen to look round....

Thanks again everyone....

cx

[Wiz]

Hi

I have a daughter at Bessemer Grange and a second starting this September. We love the school.

I don't know where you live but there are several short cuts to Bessemer Grange from East Dulwich. You can either cut through the end of St Francis Road (near East Dulwich Station) and there is a path that leads you past the Dulwich Hamlet Football pitch. Alternatively, you can take Greendale which is a foot/cycle path that is basically a continuation of Townley Road. It takes us 20 mins max to walk to school from Cyrstal Palace Road.

[crosspatch39]

I think you are lucky to have been offered two schools, some of us have still have no offer of any place anywhere!! (Despite campaigning via councillors and our MP)

[Renata Hamvas]

Crosspatch39,

I believe you must be one of the DKH parents whose application didn't arrive at Southwark's offices. The most likely explanation is that they got lost in the post.

Infant classes can't go above 30, so places will only become available if someone holding a place for September drops out.

[vivveri]

It's really good to read such positive things about Bessemer Grange as our daughter is starting there in September. We didn't get any of our closest schools but having looked around Bessemer, (despite being nearly a mile away!)we were really impressed. We are happy to have a place there following two months of waiting and chasing Southwark's admissions team. I loved the creative feel,facilities,after school activities and space. I would always go with my gut instinct over ofsted reports, however Bessemer had a good ofsted report recently - better than some of the more popular schools in ED.

It's a shame that a few of her friends have now been offered St Johns and are accepting. I can totally see that St johns is easier to get to and that it's generally a more popular choice. We know a few local parents from St Johns who really like it but none from Bessemer. We would probably face the same dilemma if we were offered both but I think our decision would be swayed by all that Bessemer has to offer over convenience of location.

[James Barber]

I've contacted the Southwark admissions team to ask why a buldge class is required at St. Johns and Bessemer as well as already announced at Goose Green and Dulwich Village Infants. They've told me it will take 10 days to respond presumably with the logic of the decision - this is really worrying as the ligic must have been crystal clear when the decision was taken and should just be a cut and paste job of what was proposed to the cabinet member councillor.

2010 lots of critiscm announcing the allocations so late. This year they're announced much earlier and clearly got it completely wrong if we need an extra 2 bulge classes with such short notice.

As queried earlier in this thread - what schools are left to bulge next year?

The only one I can think of is Langbourne - that would only be accepted by most if it guaranteed a place at Kingsdale which it doesn't yet.

Most school grounds/playgrounds arent big enoguh to take temp classrooms.

As soon as I have a clear explanation of why what seems without more info bizarre decisions have been taken I'll post it here.

[Renata Hamvas]

I have been investigating this, but haven't got a response yet (otherwise I would have posted on here about it!).

Last year James, Southwark's primary school allocations were conveniently moved from April until the Monday after the elections. This meant that new councillors like myself had been in post for a whole weekend and not even sworn in yet nor attended a single training session when local residents problems with primary school allocations came flooding in! It also meant that Southwark's primary allocations were later than our neighbouring boroughs and residents were deciding on (and holding) places in primaries in other boroughs while waiting for their Southwark outcomes.

St John and St Clement is a VA C of E school taking about 2/3 of it's pupils from churches together faiths, so it has different admissions criteria to community schools for its places.

This is also the first year of the pan London primary school admissions system where parents could apply for up to six primary schools London-wide, and all offers in all London boroughs came out on offer day. The system is therefore different to previous years and additionally, there is only one entry to primary school this year in September. In previous years there was an extra term for movement on lists as 50% of reception children started in January.

Renata

[mrs.lotte]

Renata/James I honestly don't think anyone is interested in what happened last year but rather what effect these very late additional bulges have this year and in future years. Are there really 60 families in this immediate area with no primary place despite bulges at Horniman, Goose Green and DVI? If not in this immediate area then why put the bulges here where there is such a shortage reducing future bulge options?

The admission criteria at st.john's is probably academic at this stage; the places will be offered to the next 30 on the list I expect all of whom will have accepted places elsewhere, throwing those schools into disarray.

If the schools can't fill their bulges money will have been wasted, future options limited and the schools will suffer financially as they will have to employ extra staff etc but will only receive funding for the number of children in the class.

[Renata Hamvas]

Mrs Lotte, as soon as I know, I will get in touch with you

Renata