Dulwich Village Junction

[mako]

The survey posted above is open for a year. Action required sooner than that

[ce2011]

The filter light turning right onto Calton Ave is not working, as I have experienced everyday driving through the area and reported to TFL today via their website. Hopefully get a response soon, as I agree with others that it's nonsense and an accident waiting to happen, especially as it worked fine before the new road layout!

Hopefully a few others have/will report as well, so that they can get moving on this (no pun intended!). Just opposite a primary school and area with such heavy footfall of children going through is just not good enough!

[DCT61]

I drove from Turney Road left onto Dulwich Village tonight and the green man was saying walk whilst the cycle land was on green.

I am sure that is not correct.

[Burbage]

Sqiggles Wrote:

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> I cannot believe the route for cyclists coming

> south along Dulwich Village. I sat in a car last

> night and watched a cyclist cycle up the inside to

> join the little cycle lane, before realising in

> was a dead end and there is no room (with the

> waiting cars) to get into the cycle box at the

> lights.

This is a common problem, caused by a misunderstanding of what these 'cycle lanes' are.

The cycle lane is *not* there to be used and cyclists *should not use it*. It is there because, thanks to DfT rules, Advanced Stop Line boxes must have a feeder lane (i.e. a place where the stop line is broken so cyclists can legally move ahead of it), and that feeder lane must be on the left of the carriageway, usually painted in the gutter.

It is, of course, confusingly pointless. And as clearly and wilfully murderous as it was when the poisonous incompetents came up with the idea in the '90s. The problem with cyclists going under left-turning vehicles is well known, even by the blinkered charlatans in the Department for Transport. But still councils (and TfL) pander to the lethal prescription, and paint the little lanes of death, often applauded by the despicable idiots leading the cycling campaigns, who thoughtlessly praise even homicidal 'infrastructure' for its 'awareness-raising' potential.

The only sensible way to cope with this is for cyclists *never* to use such lanes but, as advised in the highway code and elsewhere, to adopt the same road position when approaching a junction as any other vehicle, queueing in the lane where they can be seen (and see), rather than running up the gutter or racing the lights for the stop box. At least in the lane a cyclist can be seen and so, though a great many motorists will hoot and holler, they're much less likely to die by mistake.

[ED - NAGAIUTB]

NorfolkNchance Wrote:

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> DulwichSal Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > This place is an accident waiting to happen.

>

> Accidents don't just happen, they're normally

> caused by bad driving, you can't blame a road

> layout for accidents.....drive carefully and you

> wont crash, its quite simple really.

Tosh. Forcing traffic headlong into each other (Turney to Carlton and vice versa) is insane and dangerous.

[rendelharris]

ED - NAGAIUTB Wrote:

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> NorfolkNchance Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > DulwichSal Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > This place is an accident waiting to happen.

> >

> > Accidents don't just happen, they're normally

> > caused by bad driving, you can't blame a road

> > layout for accidents.....drive carefully and

> you

> > wont crash, its quite simple really.

>

> Tosh. Forcing traffic headlong into each other

> (Turney to Carlton and vice versa) is insane and

> dangerous.

Serious question - what's the difference to what pertained before? Didn't traffic from Turney Road always drive towards traffic coming out of Calton Ave?

[Sqiggles]

Under the old configuration it was more obvious that the traffic from Turney Road had priority over traffic from Calton Avenue wanting to turn right into Dulwich Village - in the same way that all right turners have to give way to traffic coming in the other direction straight on. By shifting the Turney road traffic further over to the right, it is less obvious that the Turney road into Calton cars are coming "straight on", as opposed to performing a left then right turn.

Also, by moving the Turney traffic further to the right, they are now directly opposite the 2 lanes of Calton Avenue facing the lights. It should be obvious that the Turney traffic should not go this side of the island when cars are waiting at the lights, but on an empty road you can see why someone might mistakenly drive the wrong side of the island when driving Turney to Calton - that would be straight on rather than the rather awkward left and right.

And if you are a pedestrian crossing Turney Road on a green man, you need to realise that you do not have a green man to get all the way across, but the cycle lane out of Turney is green at the same time. Again, this is not obvious - and also pretty frustrating given how long you have to wait for a green man at these lights.

Lastly, there is no longer a right filter for cars turning right from Dulwich Village into Calton Avenue. There is space for about 6 cars to be queuing to make this turn, so if they cannot start to turn until the Dulwich Village lights go red, and the green man on the Calton Avenue crossing goes green as those lights go red, pedestrians crossing on a green man (including children who have been told that the green man is "safe") are caught by the stream of right turning cars.

[rendelharris]

Good points, fair enough! Though I would contend that anyone going straight on out of Turney who doesn't realise that they should go to the left of the large traffic-light-mounted island is perhaps not really suited to being on the road.

Radical suggestion and sure there are many points against it, but why not make Calton Ave a dead end (with cycle/emergency access) at the point where it merges with Court Lane? This would make traffic in both directions use the Red Post/Village way crossroads, which is perhaps better able to cope with the traffic volumes. Most people coming out of Turney or turning right off Village Way to go on to Calton are probably using it as a shortcut to ED Grove, so they'd only really be being asked to go round different sides of the same (rough) square.

[Furness]

lulu1 Wrote:

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> I'm also particularly concerned about pedestrians

> crossing Court Lane, especially the many school

> aged children who use this crossing. There used to

> be an island in the middle of the crossing. The

> island has disappeared. Now crossing from Dulwich

> Village towards Calton Avenue is really dangerous.

> When it's busy you can't see if there's traffic

> coming around the corner towards Court Lane until

> you've crossed the first part of the road. If

> there are cars coming around the corner, the

> pedestrians will have to wait in the middle of the

> road unless the drivers are kind enough to stop

> and let them cross. For drivers it will be

> difficult to spot children in the middle of the

> road as they also have to watch out for cyclists,

> cars and coaches coming from Calton Avenue towards

> the traffic lights. Maybe I'm not explaining it

> very clearly, but it has become very dangerous and

> looks like an accident waiting to ha

I have been thinking about this for many months, as even before the road works I had a near miss with my 4 year old. someone had come around the corner we did not see a car coming we continued across and she went ahead of me I had to pull her back. Tonight we walked home from swimming and it was dark a similar thing happened. I really think this needs to be looked in to ASAP, I have three children under the age of 4 and we live in Dulwich Village all of our neighbour's with small children agree. A zebra crossing or at very least the island back may work; warn drivers there is a drop curb/crossing.

I wonder what can be done?

[macutd]

So are they resurfacing this junction now? Let's hope that they use this opportunity to make it safer!

[TheCat]

Dulwich Village was closed southbound from the traffic lights at ND station this afternoon.....are they opening it during rush hour anyone know? and how long works meant to take this time?

[Applespider]

P4 is diverted between Wood Vale and ND station until 5pm Friday.

It?s going via Lordship Lane and East Dulwich Grove.

So guessing it?s clised for the rest of this week

[slarti b]

I heard from the council that resurfacing of Dulwich Village between Turney Road and Village Way will be finished today, Tuesday.

They will then move on to re-surfacing work at the main junction (DV, Calton Avenue/Court Lane and Turney Road) and this should be finished on Friday 16 Feb. They didn't say what closures will be put in place for the second phase but probably worth avoiding the area if possible!

At least the council have sensibly waited for half term to do this.

[sjsl]

I'm confused... why are they now digging up the recently laid surfaces at this junction?! Haven't they got better things to do with our council taxes ? or at least roads that actually need resurfacing.

[rch]

FYI, there's a Traffic Order advertised in the Feb 15 issue of the Southwark News stating that Calton Avenue will be closed for Highway works between Feb 26th and March 1st (ref 4082). It looks like the Calton Ave works are going to be the final phase of the junction redesign project?

From memory, they are removing the pedestrian islands while taking out quite a few parking places in order to create more passing points, then the whole lot will be resurfaced.

[EDOldie]

The diversion for the Calton Avenue works is scheduled to send the traffic from the Village that normally goes along Calton Avenue up Woodwarde Road, down Dovercourt Road and through Townley Road to East Dulwich Grove (if it's open that is) and the traffic from East Dulwich Grove that normally goes along Calton is to be diverted along Townley Road up Dovercourt Road and down Woodwarde to the part of Calton Avenue that remains open to arrive at Dulwich Village.

Now, I'm no traffic expert but I suspect that Dovercourt Road, which is not the widest road in Dulwich usually with cars parked on both sides of the road, may not be the best choice. I wonder if anyone has bothered to try the route out between 8am & 9am? This sounds like a recipe for chaos far worse than the daily chaos we currently see at the junction of Court Lane and Calton Avenue.

[kirsty_74]

We have just been advised by my daughter's school that the East Dulwich Grove roadworks will not be finished until 28th February. Surely Calton Avenue will not be closed at the same time? Or is that wishful thinking?

[rendelharris]

Not trying to provoke anyone, just giving an opinion, but I cycled through here today for the first time since the works have completed (I assume they're completed now?) and I have to say I think it's a great improvement. I was sceptical as to its efficacy before but now one can see the whole plan I think it works well. The road surface is massively improved (obviously this could have been done anyway), which is a great boon for cyclists, and it's much clearer now who should be going where and when. The previous ad hoc, go when you fancy and line up where you want, arrangements for cars turning right off DV have been replaced with clear markings which allows cars going straight on free passage, the phasing of the lights seems much better - I rode through at 11AM and there were only half a dozen cars maximum queuing at any of the five entry points, when on Saturdays preworks, as I recall, the traffic would often be backed up to the chapel roundabout and the Red Post Hill junction in either direction. This may of course be contributed to by the fact that people have been avoiding the area and previous traffic levels have yet to resume, but on the whole it all seemed to be functioning very smoothly. The only danger in fact was a mummy and daddy who decided the best way to teach Timmy, Maisy and Daisy (one in a pushchair!) road safety was to run across the road against the red man in the path of a large accelerating cyclist! Fortunately I have good brakes.

Just my tuppenceworth and personal observation!

[Bicknell]

I had a chat with the lollypop lady this week, and she said there used to be a lot of cyclists, but they're not using it at the moment. She said pedestrians can't cross the bottom of Court Lane because the island isn't there anymore. She doesn't know why they took it away. More cars are going through than before, but drivers still dont know who has right of way, so there are horns blaring all the time. My take is that its better for cars, and may be better for cyclists, but worse for pedestrians. I don't like the trip hazard of the raised edge on the staggered crossing.

[apbremer]

The raised convex slippery edges on the kerbs are LETHAL and an accident waiting to happen, particularly in this weather.. Would that our tame councillors note and ensure that heads roll at Southwark. Appalling design.

[siouzie14]

Hi all

In case you missed it, Southwark Council are now collecting feedback about the junction via the following link:

https://consultations.southwark.gov.uk/environment-leisure/quietway-7-dulwich-village-feedback/

There are some very good points about the junction on this thread and I would hate for them to be missed by the Highway people at Southwark who might be able to deal quickly with the most urgent and dangerous problems. Cyclists for certain are unclear about priorities. The trip hazard is an urgent issue.

Thanks

[rendelharris]

Could you clarify what the trip hazard is? That there are kerbs which people might trip over? Kerbs have been around for quite a while, people generally cope with them...

[Bicknell]

rendelharris Wrote:

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> Could you clarify what the trip hazard is? That

> there are kerbs which people might trip over?

> Kerbs have been around for quite a while, people

> generally cope with them...

No mate, nothing to do with kerbs. To stop people walking straight across, because they want you to wait in the middle, they've made an edge higher than the pavement to make a barrier. But if you don't know about them you could keep walking, and trip over them into the traffic. Lethal, especially for kids. Go and have a look.

[rendelharris]

You mean the edging to the island? Kerbs! You're not seriously claiming people are going to walk straight on into them, trip over and fall into the traffic? Can't see it myself - for a start they'd have to jump the first kerb then run on into the next one...I'm all for keeping things safe but with all respect I think you're imagining a "lethal" problem that just doesn't exist.

(Picture lifted from former councillor Robin's Twitter, hope that's OK RCH)

[johnhinton]

The edges of the staggered kerbs at the junction of Turney Road and Dulwich Village are sloped. It would be easy to imagine stumbling on the sloped edges while trying to avoid cyclists and other pedestrians while keeping an eye on the time left to make the crossing.