Slutwalk

[StraferJack]

I don't agree with the getting robbed if you leave the windows open analogy at all! Its even a bit insensitive

Rape in most cases would be like a good mate house sitting for the umpteenth time only this time he robs the place blind

But here we touch in victim being blamed again. Insurance companies have a problem because people "arrange" to be robbed and make false claim. So now it's so widespread the companies almost have to be suspicious. But blame the liars and the thieves, not the innocent

[Captain Scarlet]

Thought It was Slug walk!............think of all the slme on the roads

[Moos]

maxxi, really excellent post.

Alan Medic, you need to read up a bit more on rape and its causes. Rapists do not rape for sexual gratification, but for a sense of power and control. It is a crime of violence. Hence blaming the victims' clothing is both misdirection of blame and simply inaccurate.

[Alan Medic]

The analogy is only used to highlight that there are precautions that can be taken IN SOME INSTANCES which will make a difference.

I'm not a Canadian police officer.

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I'm quite surprised by that. Excuse my ignorance but does rape more often than not occur between people who know each other well?

[RosieH]

Alan Medic, I'm guessing you're having a laugh and trying to be something of an agent provocateur. Let's get one thing straight, rape is an act of violence, not of sex. The way a woman looks really has very little to do with it (you know, apart from men who hate their mother and subconsciously seek out women who look like her).

And SJ yes. I came in too hard in that first response and was unkind. I'm sorry. Doesn't mean I don't think you're wrong though ;-)

[maxxi]

"The analogy is only used to highlight that there are precautions that can be taken IN SOME INSTANCES which will make a difference."

Leaving the analogy of women as property to one side the point is SURELY that a women should never have to take precautions. To presume otherwise is to treat rape as an inevitability much like a spring shower and that 'sensible clothes' for women (with a can of mace perhaps) can act as an umbrella.

Why must a woman expressing her sexuality be seen as a provocative act for which preventative measures need to be taken?

[Loz]

Moos Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Rapists do not rape for sexual gratification, but for a sense of power and

> control. It is a crime of violence. Hence blaming the victims' clothing is both misdirection

> of blame and simply inaccurate.

I've never quite fully agreed with the "just power and control" idea, Moos. It's one of those things where feminist writers have created a theory that doesn't always quite match the reality. Granted, there are a significant percentage where it is purely an expression of control, but I also think that sexual desire/gratification (and, in some cases, a loss of control due to sexual arousal) most definitely play a part - especially in non-stranger situations.

[Otta]

I agree with Loz. I think there are different types of rape, and different types of rapist.

And no, I AM NOT SAYING THAT ONE IS WORSE THAN ANOTHER!!!

I'm sure there are rapists who just do it for the feeling of power, but equally, I am sure that some men think a lady might be in to them, and they can't take no for an answer, and they cross a line, and then things get very very nasty. I don't think in those cases it's all about the power. Then there are blokes who spike drinks. I suspect they are in it for sex rather than power.

This is all just my thoughts, and not really based on anything I've read, so it may well be total bollocks.

[Alan Medic]

I'm not having a laugh.

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I don't know any rapists but I would say the look has more to do with it than you imply.

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Can you explain what you think the male equivalent is and what it means?

[RosieH]

So explain rape as a weapon of war. The victims of the night stalker. Rape of women in burkhas. Rape as part of domestic violence.

Do only pretty girls get raped?

What are you basing your supposition on?

[maxxi]

Quote:

Why must a woman expressing her sexuality...

"Can you explain what you think the male equivalent is and what it means?"

Can you explain why that is relevant? Unless I've missed a slew of female on male rape attacks lately there IS no male equivalent to a woman's choice of attire as an expression of her sexuality being blamed for any violent sexual attack on her.

There is gay bashing and there have - historically - been attacks on males by other males for wearing the wrong kind of tribal clothing (mods/rockers punks/teds etc) but I don't believe there is an equivalent state of affairs where a man is attacked and raped and he has been held partly or wholly responsible for the attack because of what he was wearing. If you believe differently I'd be interested to hear your reasons.

ETA: this is in regard to Medic's last post

[StraferJack]

Maxxi

Love your posts, etc. But yes male on male rape is prevalent and exists within a similar framework. Ie.. Well you were in such and such a bar, you looked like such and such and said blah de blah

By sheer dint of volume, women suffer far far more. But the MO is the same regardless of victim's gender

(Not sure that's what mr medic was getting at, but I think its what you were asking about)

[helpmeoutnow]

Do men rape fat women RosieH?

[RosieH]

helpmeoutnow, you tell me.

[Otta]

This helpmeoutnow is quite the card.

[RosieH]

Well Otta, that's one four letter word beginning with C

[maxxi]

StraferJack Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Maxxi

>

> Love your posts, etc. But yes male on male rape

> is prevalent and exists within a similar

> framework. Ie.. Well you were in such and such a

> bar, you looked like such and such and said blah

> de blah

>

> By sheer dint of volume, women suffer far far

> more. But the MO is the same regardless of

> victim's gender

>

> (Not sure that's what mr medic was getting at, but

> I think its what you were asking about)

Accepted absolutely - and male rape victims deserve the same protection but have never heard of anyone in wider society or representatives thereof (police/courts/press etc) blaming the male rape victim for wearing provocative clothes.

The rapist might use the arguments you suggest but they do not have the same purchase in society as women in slutty clothes 'asking for it'. It isn't just about rape victims but about every person's right to dress how they like without society telling them they are making themselves a victim.

[Alan Medic]

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Don't pretend I said that. I didn't. What does a woman expressing her sexuality mean? Do you think so little of yourself as a being you have to express your sexuality? I'm a woman. I'm a sexual being. Aren't we all. Why the obsession with expressing it if it isn't some sort of inferiority complex you have that you are trying to overcome?

[maxxi]

My whole line that you partly quoted was:

"Why must a woman expressing her sexuality be seen as a provocative act for which preventative measures need to be taken?"

A woman may choose to express her sexual promiscuity and permissiveness, she may even wish to shout it from the rooftops. If you think that women who behave like this think little of themselves or are obsessed and have an inferiority complex that is an opinion you are entitled to as is everybody else - but no one is entitled to take that expression as permission for any and everyone who cares to to attack, violate and have sex with the woman without her express consent.

[Alan Medic]

Most people dress for others even if they wont admit it. How do you explain why men wear ties? If I had to live at home on my own I wouldn't iron a shirt. I wouldn't shave. Probably stick with the same underpants for a few days. Might not shower. I'd be a slob. I wouldn't want to go out like that though.

[maxxi]

True - but you wouldn't expect to be attacked for it either would you? Or having been attacked have society tell you it was your fault.

*exits to pub dressed as a virus*

[Alan Medic]

  Quote

And a man jumps on her from another rooftop and shags her. He is guilty of a crime. She is just guilty of having no class I guess.

[RosieH]

What ignorant rot.

Shags? No class?

Have a word with yourself man.

[Alan Medic]

Which bit is ignorant? Shag is just a word, as is slut. I don't like either. You'd go on a slutwalk because it means something much more profound. It's ok though cause of something someone said in Canada or somewhere.

[RosieH]

To describe the criminal act of rape as shagging someone is about as ignorant as it gets.

As for judging the 'class' or otherwise of a woman's attire, how's about you post a picture of one of your outfits on here and we'll all decide whether it shows the same wit, style and yes, class, as your posts?

And if we don't like it, you know, well maybe someone will leap off a roof and brutalise you. And to think you could have prevented it simply by paying heed to the pages of GQ...