Poor Kids on BBC last night. An Idea.

[BB100]

Hi Huggers,

I have just listed them for 1p or 10p and it usually turns into a few pounds but then will give free postage to cancel that out. It all started when I listed some barely worn Clarks school shoes for 1p once and got ?11 for them after some frantic bidding. It made me reflect on how expensive good quality school shoes are. I discovered that charity shops are not allowed to take in children's shoes, redistribute them or sell them in the UK so how else can you get a pair for your child if it costs a significant chunk of your income?

and school cupboards don't do shoes.

People don't have to have computers - they go to the library or to Children's centres, but how long that will be available is another discussion.

[Huggers]

thanks BB100, I'll start cleaning and replacing laces straight away.

[BB100]

EDmummy Wrote:

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So many TVs are given away or

> sold cheaply on EDF, maybe they could go to

> families in Southwark who could do without the

> burden of HP arrangements. This could also be the

> case for washing machines, dryers and fridges.

There are charities that will collect white goods and furniture for low-income families like this one: thttp://www.leeoasis.org.uk/

I have worked with many low-income families and there is a lot of stigma and pride involved in accepting hand-outs. People like to feel they have provided for their children themselves and so buying through ebay can be very appealing. I don't know anyone who has approached a school about second-hand uniform although I do know that sometimes people have stolen items of uniform from the school cloakroom.

One idea that I think is great is what Wilson's school does in Waddon. They have a fund for parents and ex-pupils to donate to which provides the full cost of a uniform at the start of Year 7 and pays for all school trips for families on benefits.

[Saffron]

BB100 Wrote:

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> Hi Huggers,

> I have just listed them for 1p or 10p and it

> usually turns into a few pounds but then will give

> free postage to cancel that out. It all started

> when I listed some barely worn Clarks school shoes

> for 1p once and got ?11 for them after some

> frantic bidding.

Great idea!

> I discovered that charity shops are not allowed to

> take in children's shoes, redistribute them or

> sell them in the UK...

Is that by law or just convention? And why??? Is it b/c of the misguided belief that shoes cannot be thoroughly cleaned?

Of course trainers and other synthetic shoes are easily washed in any washing machine. But most people don't realize that you can wash leather and suede shoes too.

I have put both my husband's smelly suede loungers and my leather paddock boots through the wash on a 'hand wash' cycle. (I did have to do the boot one at a time.) Husband was totally speechless that the shoes all turned out fine after a little reshaping and air-drying.

[BB100]

I don't know and have never thought to google it as I just accepted it as a given. I looked at the Red Cross which says:

Donations we can?t accept

We cannot sell anything that it would be unsafe for you to buy ? anything that is broken, dangerous, unhygienic, where its safety cannot be proven or it would be illegal for us to sell. Please do not bring these items to us as we will have to incur costs for their disposal.

In particular, we can?t accept:

medication or solvents

crash helmets, hard hats or protective headgear and clothes

toys, nightwear or upholstered items that don?t have the relevant safety labels

used dentures, jewellery for pierced body-parts, cosmetics and toiletries

used children?s shoes, clothing with drawstrings, cots, prams or nursery furniture

I assume second-hand children's shoes are classed as unhygenic or unsafe as they could be ill-fitted??? Maybe there is some EU regulation but there are plenty of UK charities shipping shoes to other countries so really if it's good enough for them.....

[zeban]

Wow that's crazy. Shoes are incredibly expensive, I remember my Mum struggling to buy us shoes regularly

[Huggers]

shoes are hugely expensive and with boys specially, the thing they can grow out of in weeks! therefore the item most recyclable I think. If you think how long our adult shoes last when our feet have stopped growing- and yet a childs shoe can last as little as three months before outgrown. THerefore only fulfilling perhaps a third of its potential wearability.

[Belle]

I know that shoes was one of the few things I didn't used to get as hand me downs, because there was a theory that (if your feet are growing) you shouldn't wear shoes that have been shaped/stretched by another child. Also know that e.g. Clarks won't sell without a fitting. So maybe that's why?

[BB100]

Which one is worse though. Shoes shaped by another child's foot or shoes too tight or with a hole that lets the water in?

[Belle]

I agree - just speculating that that's what may be behind it.

[Alec John Moore]

I watched this last night on iplayer and found it really moving and thougth provoking. I work in international development and I recognise the stigma attached to poverty that the children in Leicester and Bradford articulated so well from seeing and talking to children in Malawi. What struck me most was the way the children in the TV programme were so wise beyond their years and quite stoic about their situation. Not quite resigned or defeated nor angry but understanding of the limitations that poverty puts on their lives and their futures. I thought that was the greatest indictment of policies that allow families to get into that situation - that the children can't be fulfilled in their lives. My children need to watch that programme.

I've also been thinking about what we can do about it. I am sure there are voluntary organisations in Bradford and Leicester which could help those families featured in the TV programme but I know that the stigma associated with poverty can prevent people from taking advantage of hand outs. It was interesting to see the dad in Leicester using the interweb to look for a job. I wonder if ebay or something similar could be used to enable people in his situation to buy 2nd hand school uniforms so that his son didn't experience the humiliation of having to wear his sister's blouse to school and wear ankle flapping trousers. The challenge would be to ensure that the school clothes our children have grown out of go to the those most in need.

[skyblue]

Huggers - your idea is fantastic. We will have uniform/shoes to give. I'm sure lots of parents at school will have too

[Huggers]

hi , I have been contacted by a lady in the midlands who found the edf by googling about the programme as she too wants to do somethingand she is looking into stuff her end.

In contact also with a primary assistant head in East End who is looking into how we could coordinate something. She tells me when children in Tower Hamlets go into secondary education in can cause a huge financial crisis and some of these children are desperate for second hand stuf

Looking into ways of targeting this- the charity shops in poor areas is quite a good idea, but we all like a bargain and it's not necessarily going to reach the people who needit most.

also thinking very much of bundling according to size, age and gender

[Huggers]

Candalasina and David Carnell have both mentioned local need in Southwark and Lewisham. Do you have any contacts you can ask about how best to get this stuff to families?

We could just do a local collection, make some calls to schools and drive it over. It could be a start.

[BB100]

All the cuts to children's services and and benefits is going to make the problem even worse.

http://www.nurseryworld.co.uk/news/rss/1067692/Early-years-cuts-stall-poverty-drop/

[Saffron]

Belle Wrote:

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> ... there

> was a theory that (if your feet are growing) you

> shouldn't wear shoes that have been

> shaped/stretched by another child.

Yes that's a possibility. In an ideal world, all children would have new shoes. But better a slightly worn shoe, than a shoe with holes etc, as BB100 and you both observed.

But also, there are inexpensive ways to repair lightly worn shoes. Obviously shoes like trainers with visibly uneven wear (eg, one sole worn more than the other) are probably best on the recycling heap. However, in many cases, modern shoes are so well made that simply adding new insoles to a properly cleaned shoe can give the shoe significantly more wear-time.

[ThePrincessBride]

Hi All,

What about all the Crocs our kids have grown out of. I'm sure we could accumulate a Crocs mountain...I have at least 2 outgrown pairs from my daughter knocking about. And they are easily washed in a machine and come up like brand new. At least during the summer, some kids would benefit from some 'trendy' shoes to wear. They would be really light weight to post also!

I'm also looking into ways of giving stuff away. So hard to find organisation who collect donations for children in London / UK. I'm going to contact some 'estate' schools in Lambeth / Southwark and see if possibility of having a 'bring and buy' sale for uniforms etc. I'm sure if they are sold for 10p etc, there will be plenty of takers! Just need a Head who is amenable to putting some playground posters up and letting a sale go on one afternoon after school. If anyone is a school head... do get in touch!!

Also, most estates have some kind of community (or church) hall that can be rented out. Perhaps one of these kind of sales can be staged in one of them. Summer hols are coming and could also 'sell' things like second hand reading books, colouring books / pencils / playing cards, skipping ropes etc at really knowck down prices to the kids. I know they can be bought in shops etc... but how many of these kids really get taken shopping for play things?

Just some random ideas. If you'd like to get involved, I can be reached on [email protected] I've set up the e-mail address purely for this purpose.

Happy to club together with anyone willing and try to get something off the gound in the next few weeks... before schools close fo rthe summer. Could also do something at start of Sept to target beginning of the new school year!

eBay idea seems good.

[bawdy-nan]

I know that this is well intentioned and comes from a genuine desire to help. But. There is something distasteful about it all. Sending crocs to the poor isn't going to help really. I understand the need / desire to fix the problem but clothes parcels don't acheive social justice.

As a previous poster noted. The govts about to make this all so much worse.

[Alec John Moore]

Hi bawdy-nan

I know it appears condescending but I think it's an understandable response to very moving stories depicting a serious problem. The way the programme makers used the statistics that provide the official context for the programme was very effective in my view but if we'd only been presented with the stats then I doubt if we'd be having this discussion in quite the same way. I've worked in the voluntary sector for a number of years now and I often wonder why people don't use their voices to express outrage at a situation and campaign for changes to policy. I know that many do but there are many who feel that giving something to help is the only or best way for them.

I watched the programme this morning again on iplayer with my kids who are similar ages to those children in Bradford and Leicester. At least it made them think a bit about their own situation.

[legalalien]

An alternative way of doing it would be to match people with a specific "needy" family with a child a couple of sizes smaller. I came across someone in need on the internet (it was mumsnet, I confess) a couple of years ago and about twice a year I post all the things that DS has grown out of, and which are still in good nick, to her in Yorkshire. We send each other Xmas and birthday cards. I think it's quite nice to know where things have come from, and also to get a "surprise" parcel from the post office a couple of times a year. (As it happens, as a child I was the subject of a similar arrangement where we got second-hand clothes from another (unknown) family, which is what made me suggest it). Once the arrangement's in place, there's no need for "asking" for more help. There's no reason why we couldn't have "local" pairing up - and it could be online and anonymous (although obviously you'd need to know the recipient's address or a school to drop it off at).

[mettelw]

Legalalien, what a great idea. I wish there was a way to arrange such 'exchanges' - rather than relying on bumping into somebody on mumsnet if you don't happen to know a family that needs help.

Baddy-nan - I disagree that it is distasteful, helping out another family is exactly what we should be trying to do. No government will be able to eradicate poverty, and even if it was, this would take years and years. In the meantime there are children going without appropriate clothes, why shouldn't we help them (in a way that enables these families to maintain their dignity)?

[Huggers]

Bawdynan the feedback I am getting from east end school assistant head is that it is anything but distasteful and our good outgrown school shirts and trousers would really help desperate families at school changeover time. These families cannot wait for govenment changes and are not consoled by our political anger on their behalf. they need stuff now.

I think crocs are irrelevent and that's why I am focusing on school clothes. I'm not talking about dumping our old stuff on the poor but a general recycling school clothes and shoes exchange.

This thread has already been picked up by a woman in the west midlands who was googling the subject after the programme and she has been in contact re this idea. Womens institute may be a good conduit for channelling such an exchange as they are already doing something re the oppressive economic burden on children of fashion

To put it bluntly, we have lots of stuff and others dont. IF your child has three pairs of trousers they will be less worn out by the time he has grown out of them than the trousers of a child who has one pair.

Also womens institute, which already has established networks, may be a good conduit through which to operate this.

[legalalien]

I would add good quality winter coats and wellies to the school uniform if you're focussing on basics- coats are expensive and wellies are both very useful and generally not worn out by the time they're grown out of.

[Pugwash]

I grew up in ED (in Spurling Road) where my mum was a single parent ( my Dad having left her for another). Our upper floor flat had one gas fire, mould growing in the rooms due to the leaky flat roof which the private landlord refused to repair. We had no hot water, or bathroom and the only wc in the house could only be accessed by going through the downstairs flat's living room and down the garden as outside wc. When the wc was not working we had to use slop buckets and use the house next door's wc. Spurling Road was designated for slum clearance twice in the 1950s and 1960s.

Mum was on the council housing list for 18 years and did not get an offer.

School Uniform was a struggle for her - I had a mixture of new and 2nd hand clothing.

From the day I left school, I vowed that I would never let my children live in such housing conditions as I was ashamed to bring home friends etc. My wages were ?13 pw with the GLC and I put by ?1-2 pw into savings, the rest going to mum and my fares. I got my first mortgage at the age of 25.

My eldest daughter went to Goodrich, and they had regular jumble sales - there was always a table with school uniforms and barely worn shoes - everyone made a beeline for this stall - you could get a complete uniform for ?1.

St.Anthony's had a similair set up when daughter No 2 went - and always had a 'spare clothes' cupboard for 'emergencies'.

My grandchildren usually wear 2nd hand clothing - they are now 12 and 7, they are not into fashion in a big way thankfully, although the 12 year old usually spends her birthday and Christmas money on clothes.

I think many children are raised with values that new is best, you must have the latest fad to be accepted by your peers. When daughter No 1, moaned as a teenager that we did not spend enough money to keep her in fashion, I asked her how fashion trends were started, why become a sheep when she could be a leader. She took this on board and set up her own fashion style (flowing indian/ethnic dresses/materials etc) which within a couple of years - everyone was following.

She is now 38, still wears 2nd hand clothing and still likes the 'ethnic' look.