Breastfeeding in public (surely there cannot still be an issue...)

[karthigan]

I don't understand why she should have to remove herself? Breastfeeding can take 30 minutes or more, and this woman ( as an example) has managed to get herself and her assumably young baby out, well done to her, she shouldn't have to leave her companions and meal she has also paid for. Other diners can easily look away if it really bothers them.

Breastfeeding is acknowledged to be best if possible, and above and beyond the other difficulties that can come with this

The last thing women need to to be made to feel it is somehow shameful, embarrassing or disgusting.

Regarding some of the comments regarding noise or smells, surely you would have to be literally sniffing them for either! Minimal breast is usually visible. This thread has genuinely surprised me in he attitudes which I thought were mostly long gone.

[rendelharris]

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Much of what you say is true. I'm simply

> questioning your inability to see that not

> everybody might have thought it appropriate while

> they're eating their dainty sandwiches and yummy

> cakes. Some might have thought it inconsiderate of

> the other diners.

Again, why? Until you can actually explain in what way it is inconsiderate, inappropriate or offensive your objections are entirely irrational!

[jacks09]

My wife has recently finished breastfeeding after 7 months. The only reason we have been able to transition away is that, after buying every possible bottle, our baby finally took one.

We also made a huge effort to try and ensure my wife and baby managed to get out of the house as often as possible, cafe's restaurants, even managed two very short haul flights.

I'm really happy to report that we didn't experience any animosity towards us as a family when my wife had to feed in public, people barely noticed. Having many friends also going through this, i can say with a huge amount of confidence that "exhibitionism" does not come into it at all. This is a basic biological need, that should be encouraged for the myriad of health benefits its provides.

If this offends you, why don't you remove yourselves from this situation, instead of insisting the mother and baby should, I wold be far more offended by a narrow minded bigot expressing archaic views that are plain wrong, than a breastfeeding mother, in a public place.

[rendelharris]

Glad to hear that jacks09 - a good illustration that the antediluvian views of a few on here are very much representative of a tiny minority these days.

[keano77]

The 'like it or lump it' school of thought seems to be winning on this thread.

[rendelharris]

keano77 Wrote:

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> The 'like it or lump it' school of thought seems

> to be winning on this thread.

As opposed to the "I object to what you're doing and think I should have a right to insist on your not doing it even though I can't actually provide a single rational explanation as to why what you're doing is in any way wrong" school of thought?

[keano77]

Rendel, you've already conceded on your over-generalisation above because you stopped and thought about it for a minute. There are times and places where it is not appropriate - courts for example.

If you think a bit harder and deeper it may become apparent that others who may not agree with you are not necessarily irrational. They might have been brought up with different standards as to what is or is not acceptable or desirable in polite society. I've given some high profile examples. I don't think beast feeding should be encouraged in important institutions like national debating chambers for example.

I could get all pompous and philosophical about the confusion between the public and private realms in modern society and the role of social media in exacerbating this confusion but I suspect I'd be wasting my time.

[jacks09]

Keano, I'm really keen(o) to understand why you are against this - other than you "might have been brought (sic) up with different standards as to what is or is not acceptable or desirable in polite society".

Is it the exposed flesh? Is it the baby in a public place? This conversation started with examples of supermarkets, restaurants etc. I'm sure if we all tried really hard we could find examples that are exceptions to the rule (court etc) but i think we would all like to understand your reasoning.

[lavender27]

My friend breastfed her son in class at University, no one bothered, they were very hip about it. And whilst she was breastfeeding, she was also educating herself and her son at the same time, who is now a musician.

[lavender27]

Oh by the way is there still a Claridges, thought they closed in the 50's,

[rendelharris]

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Rendel, you've already conceded on your

> over-generalisation above because you stopped and

> thought about it for a minute. There are times and

> places where it is not appropriate - courts for

> example.

>

> If you think a bit harder and deeper it may become

> apparent that others who may not agree with you

> are not necessarily irrational. They might have

> been brought up with different standards as to

> what is or is not acceptable or desirable in

> polite society. I've given some high profile

> examples. I don't think beast feeding should be

> encouraged in important institutions like national

> debating chambers for example.

>

> I could get all pompous and philosophical about

> the confusion between the public and private

> realms in modern society and the role of social

> media in exacerbating this confusion but I suspect

> I'd be wasting my time.

I mentioned one very specific example - in the courts - where breastfeeding might hamper the mother in carrying out her tasks. Obviously if you wish one can come up with other scenarios - when driving or operating heavy machinery, for example.

However, simply stating that you may have different standards of manners doesn't cut it I'm afraid. I'm a stickler for good manners and I abhor the many ways in which common courtesy has waned over my lifetime. But if your "standards" are entirely irrational and not based on anything except saying "they're my standards," without explanation, that is not an argument. Take a trivial example, when I was younger it was impossible to get into a halfway decent restaurant without a tie on; now people have realized how absurd that was and in all but a few places the rule has been relaxed. Good manners have a rationale behind them, all I'm asking for, once again, is for you to explain what is offensive about someone breastfeeding their baby in a public place? Until you can do that I'm afraid your objections say a lot more about you than about the women who undertake such activity. Thinking you have a right to decree where women should and shouldn't be allowed to undertake something as natural and essential as breastfeeding is the real bad manners here, I'm afraid.

[keano77]

I'm not sure you are genuinely interested Jacks09. But here's a little thought experiment for you.

People are in the fresh fruit aisle of a supermarket trying to decide between the raspberries, grapes, plums and all sorts of exotic fruit. The supermarket attracts people from all walks of life, young, middle-aged, old, all races, creeds, colours and genders. A woman is breast feeding in that aisle and one person complains to a supermarket employee that it is not appropriate.

Can you image any situation where the complainant is not irrational, bigoted, misogynistic, antediluvian, a dinosaur, hold archaic views and so on? Is it possible the complainant just thought 'why are you doing that here, in the middle of the aisle when there are plenty of other places you could choose to feed your child'?

[jacks09]

Thanks for the simplicity, though i can assure you my interest is genuine.

I can imagine that situation - what i can't imagine is any justifiable reason for that non "irrational, bigoted, misogynistic, antediluvian, a dinosaur, hold archaic views" to have that complaint.

What is it about that action of breastfeeding that is so inappropriate? Also, as suggested previously, maybe the complainant could remove themselves from the situation, raspberries, grapes, plums and pineapple in hand, instead of going out of their way to find a member of staff and make a complaint that has no future benefit to their life, that couldn't have been achieved by moving to the milk aisle (pun intended).

Again, "What is it about that action of breastfeeding that is so inappropriate?" - this is the single point you have failed to respond to.

[rendelharris]

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

Is it possible the complainant just thought

> 'why are you doing that here, in the middle of the

> aisle when there are plenty of other places you

> could choose to feed your child'?

But WHY???? You are apparently unable to answer the question as to why you want breastfeeding banned in certain places without coming up with the slightest rationale as to why it should be! Is it the display of flesh? You've been asked this over and over by myself and others and thus far have been utterly unable or unwilling to explain your antipathy.

(ETA crossposted with jacks, who obviously shares my curiosity - come on keano, do enlighten us)

[keano77]

Good Rendel we agree - it's not always appropriate, Surgeons during an operation or dentists giving you fillings might be ill-advised.

How did you get on with the thought experiment?

[fatcats]

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Much of what you say is true. I'm simply

> questioning your inability to see that not

> everybody might have thought it appropriate while

> they're eating their dainty sandwiches and yummy

> cakes. Some might have thought it inconsiderate of

> the other diners.

It's not an inability. Neither am I saying like it or lump it. The reality is that the alternatives you have put forward are not feasible, if you care to understand the mechanics of breastfeeding and how it works.

Everyone has an opinion of course. But mothers can't simply 'grab a bottle' 'disappear off for 5 minutes' or 'feed before they go out' because this simply isn't it how it works. These are statements bandied around by a lot of anti-public breastfeeding types/misogynists and because such a tiny proportion of women actually breastfeed they don't get challenged anywhere near enough. Read the comments beneath any Daily Mail (one of the most read websites in the world) article on breastfeeding - the level of ignorance is frightening and it's amplified time and time again.

[rendelharris]

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Good Rendel we agree - it's not always

> appropriate, Surgeons during an operation or

> dentists giving you fillings might be ill-advised.

>

>

> How did you get on with the thought experiment?

Yes nice try at diversion (though rather transparent). Come on now, please, just explain in simple terms, using logical argument, what you find offensive about a woman breastfeeding her baby in a pub?

[keano77]

fatcats Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> keano77 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Much of what you say is true. I'm simply

> > questioning your inability to see that not

> > everybody might have thought it appropriate

> while

> > they're eating their dainty sandwiches and

> yummy

> > cakes. Some might have thought it inconsiderate

> of

> > the other diners.

>

> It's not an inability. Neither am I saying like it

> or lump it. The reality is that the alternatives

> you have put forward are not feasible, if you care

> to understand the mechanics of breastfeeding and

> how it works.

>

> Everyone has an opinion of course. But mothers

> can't simply 'grab a bottle' 'disappear off for 5

> minutes' or 'feed before they go out' because this

> simply isn't it how it works. These are statements

> bandied around by a lot of anti-public

> breastfeeding types/misogynists and because such a

> tiny proportion of women actually breastfeed they

> don't get challenged anywhere near enough. Read

> the comments beneath any Daily Mail (one of the

> most read websites in the world) article on

> breastfeeding - the level of ignorance is

> frightening and it's amplified time and time

> again.

Seriously fatcats I have found your posts very informative and I've learnt that's it not a simple as I imagined. Thank you for that. It does put the Claridges example in a different context.

[keano77]

You do like the word offensive Rendel, you've used it a number of times. I haven't mentioned offend, offensive. Inappropriate, inconsiderate and possibly selfish I think I've used.

I gave three high-profile examples. The Australian Senator example was a publicity stunt by a woman who, it transpires, wasn't eligible to be in Parliament in the first place because of dual-nationality laws.

The Claridges example wasn't as straight forward as I thought thanks to fatcats' explanation.

I still find the Tesco example questionable. The woman was a teacher who complained that she felt humiliated yet chose to ignore alternatives.

What I find difficult to understand is the blinkered thinking that nobody is allowed to question or complain. Woman sitting at a bar breast feeding where people are trying to get served? How dare you suggest she's making a statement, seeking attention, is selfish, inconsiderate. It's irrelevant that there are plenty of other places in the pub for her and her friends to gather.

I suppose that's the world we live in - if you're not with 'em you're against 'em.

[rendelharris]

You're not exactly making things any better - OK, instead of explaining why you think breastfeeding in public is offensive, explain why you think it's inappropriate, inconsiderate and selfish! Seriously?

"What I find difficult to understand is the blinkered thinking that nobody is allowed to question or complain."

That's blinkered thinking, is it? So would it be OK to complain about a black person in a pub, or a gay person, or a disabled person? Surely if not that would just be blinkered thinking?

Once again, and really, for the last time, what is it that you find so objectionable about a woman breastfeeding in public? There must be something there for you to be this vehemently against it, but as yet you've been completely unable to explain what it is.

[karthigan]

Again I don't see the problem? Why would her being at the bar be any different to anyone else sat at the bar, I don't see how this prevents anyone getting served?!!

If she's sat there and her baby is hungry why should she have to move? And calling her selfish or attention seeking seems to be assuming she's baring her breast in an exhibitionish manner rather than to feel her child which I would say is more a biological necessity.

I agree with rendal really, what is it about breastfeeding you find so objectionable?

The senator in parliament was probably doing it to make a point... but I think attitudes like this mean that the issue still needs to be highlighted and discussed and this was I assume done to aid this.

[keano77]

Before I answer your question Rendel let me correct you before somebody accuses you of trying to put words into my mouth. I have not said I think breast feeding in public is inappropriate, inconsiderate and selfish. I've said it can be. There is a time and a place for everything.

Now I asked a simple question above, a thought experiment to make it sound grand. Basically on my example could anybody think of any reason why a person might complain and it would be reasonable to do so. There is no right answer and no wrong answer.

It stumped jacks09. He or she couldn't think of a justification for the complaint. You Rendel have avoided it.

So, to answer your question "...what is it that you find so objectionable about a woman breastfeeding in public? "

I don't in general but can see why it might be objectionable, inappropriate, undesirable etc in certain circumstances I object to the over-simplification that's it's legal so people have a right to do it anytime anywhere they see fit and if you don't like it you can lump it, leave, avert your eyes. I'm under no obligation to be considerate or to assess the immediate surroundings and act accordingly.

Now, I don't think babies and very young toddlers have evolved that much since my children were young. Feeding our children was a nightmare (both breast initially then bottle-feed). They would feed, then get wind and need burping and disgorge sick which would part empty their tummies and make them hungry again. It was a constant round of patting backs and rubbing tummies and rocking them back and forth to burp them. A bib mopped up sick, became sodden, bib two came into play and even a small hand towel. Then, if we were lucky there would be a short respite of an hour or two before the process was repeated.

As I say, unless children have evolved, I'm surprised (not really) that nobody above has mentioned such a basic (inconvenient) fact of life.

Okay, so let's go back to Claridges for example. It's a posh place and many a wealthy person graces it with their presence. It's also the type of place though where people book months in advance and part with their hard-earned money for a special treat of high tea.

Call me old-fashioned but I can see why somebody might not be happy that a baby is being fed, winded, de-sicked, fed, winded, de-sicked ad nauseam (pun intended jacks09) while they are trying to eat dainty sandwiches and freshly baked cakes and pastries. It's not as simple as just averting one's eyes in a packed salon or dining room with all the commotion going on. Why should the person who complains be treated like some devil with horns?

Rhetorical question, I don't expect any sensible answers.

I'm surprised so many people above claim complete incomprehension at anyone who might complain

[rendelharris]

Oh I see, it's only inconsiderate, selfish and inappropriate when you decide it is. Right. You've tried to change tack somewhat, we were specifically discussing breastfeeding, not all the other delights babies are able to produce. Bit strange that after a whole day of arguing and many, many comments it's only just occcured to you to shoehorn that one in. Anyway, I give up, you obviously have a problem with women breastfeeding in public which you can't articulate, but lacking any training in psychiatry I can't help you with that. Fortunately, as someone noted above, 95% of people fully support the right (and it is a right and, ahem, rightly so) for women to feed their children in public, so hopefully instances of women being hassled and complained about in public by those who go into Victorian vapours at the sight of a few square inches of exposed mammary gland will continue to decline.

[keano77]

I gave you a chance Rendel, could you think of any reason etc

[karthigan]

You still haven't answered regarding your issue with breastfeeding?? Having brought up burping and vomiting into to it, as rendal notes a different if linked issue, I don't get how bottle feeding would resolve this problem? Bottle fed babies also need winding and can vomit. To resolve any chance of this surely you would want all babies banned from these venues not breastfeeding?

Regarding your fruit isle issue, tbh no not really, there are things I don't like others doing, but that's my issue not theirs so why would I complain? For example the sound of thick sputum being coughed up really gets me, but I am fully aware this is my issue and would never dream of asking someone to stop or leave and do it quietly. Frankly compared to some behaviour around I can't see why breastfeeding is such an issue. It's attitudes like this that put women off feeding, making them feel it's wrong or disgusting somehow, and contribute to the UK's low rates.