Mobile Traffic Enforcement - They Have to Go !

[StraferJack]

From what I can tell from comments on here, the hiding isn?t very effective ? people can see them and people are aware that the ?hide? anyway.

So all the drivers on here appear to be aware that as they approach that junction there is chance of them being caught ? so the theory is that with that awareness, the drive more carefully and don?t get caught. And the junction is safer as a result. Unless, some drivers prefer to take risks and then complain when caught - which costs them and keeps the junction a more dangerous one. Time of day shouldn't playa part in it - safe/correct driving is the same at any time of day

I?m not trying to be argumentative ? I just don?t see what the real problem is.

[Earl Aelfheah]

kford - it's a fair point - I was talking generally about the use of cameras for traffic enforcement and was thinking mainly about speed cameras. The fact remains however, that the rules of the road need to be enforced and this is a relatively cheap and easy way to do it.

[Loz]

njc97 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Loz - the problem with that junction in battersea

> is the drivers. The excuse that "it's difficult to

> see the exits" is bullshit. And the markings on

> the road are v cleear.

Or you could try reading what I typed. That's not what I said.

And if so many drivers are getting caught at a particular junction then there is almost certainly an issue with that junction. Do you actually know that junction? Do you drive a car?

[Jeremy]

It's a bit of a silly argument... it goes round in circles, and doubtless will continue to do so again and again.

carnell, straferjack, rahrah, etc are all right in that road enforcement is necessary to help traffic flow, and maintain road safety. We all know that. But at the same time, the individuals who do the job often use sneaky, predatory tactics, in order to meet the targets set for them - even going as far as handing out blatantly incorrect penalties on the off-chance that the recipient won't contest it. Again and again, their behaviour has been shown to be nothing short of disgraceful. And yet people wonder why they receive so much hostility?

The solution is to remove artificial targets and financial incentives, and stop outsourcing the work to these cowboys.

[Tarzan]

The solution is even simpler than that - Don't break the rules and you won't be punished - everything else is just whining.

[Penguin68]

The fact remains however, that the rules of the road need to be enforced

This rather begs the question; do they? If the 'rules of the road' said that red cars couldn't drive in the right hand lanes on roads orientated East:West on alternate Thursdays in months where rainfall exceeded the average you would be happy that these rules were enforced?

In a civilised scoiety rules that should be enforced are ones that we all, broadly, sign-up to. Many of the traffic and parking rules appear arbitrary and designed to catch-out motorists. Speed limits on motorways where work is going on (and where work people might need to access traffic lanes at times) are sensible and necessary - impose them at 3.00 in the morning when there are no workmen, and no other cars for a mile on either side and this is about arbitrary revenue generation (and no, I haven't been caught in this way, although friends have).

Box junctions and fast changing lights (there were lots around Holborn a few years ago) ensured a steady revenue stream - congestion charging was brought in to speed traffic and ease congestion - and immediately further revenue generating restrictions were brought in (like dedicated lanes) which brought down traffic flow back to the 12mph which had made the case for congestion charging in the first place.

Just because 'it's a rule', doesn't mean that it carries some immense and over-riding moral authority. Unless you believe that our loal councillors, by virtue of having been elected (and their officials, by virtue of having been employed) suddenly gain some over-arching and awesome moral authority and capability, transcending them from the venal and ambitious politicians and apparatchiks that they were before their transfiguration. (Of course there are good ones, just not that many in my experience).

[Loz]

Tarzan Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The solution is even simpler than that - Don't

> break the rules and you won't be punished -

> everything else is just whining.

Yes, because all parking tickets are perfectly legitimate, all roads and their markings are perfect and legal and FIFA is a squeaky-clean organisation. It's just those pesky drivers, motorcyclists and cyclists.

Any chance you can sort out the recession with your all-knowing wisdom?

[kford]

Tarzan Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The solution is even simpler than that - Don't

> break the rules and you won't be punished -

> everything else is just whining.

But, as Jeremy says, when it's about targets rather than just about safety, you'll find motorists punished for the most minor of technicalities, like hanging a wheel just one inch out of a parking bay or into a box junction, or as motorists in Camden have found, being fined for turning across a bus lane into a shop car park.

[StraferJack]

I'm in total agreement about scrapping targets btw

But i posted because the op was insisting that noone disagreed with him. For pointing out that wasn't true i got called an idiot

So I'm inclined to think it's exactly that mentality that is the underlying problem. An inability to see a bigger picture will mean permanent outrage and a sense of being picked on

As for people pointing out the rules of the road are arbitrary... This may be true but it's what you sign up for when you take the test.

[david_carnell]

Just because 'it's a rule', doesn't mean that it carries some immense and over-riding moral authority. Unless you believe that our loal councillors, by virtue of having been elected (and their officials, by virtue of having been employed) suddenly gain some over-arching and awesome moral authority and capability, transcending them from the venal and ambitious politicians and apparatchiks that they were before their transfiguration. (Of course there are good ones, just not that many in my experience).

No. I believe the rules have authority because most will have be implemented after expensive consultation with qualified transport planners rather than just by asking a man in a Ford Escort what he reckons should be done. If you truly think some rules/roads/junctions badly designed or arbitary, what have you done about it? Contacted your council? Or Transport for London?

Or just whinged on a local forum?

[Earl Aelfheah]

Anyone can give examples of over zealous officials, or petty / poorly applied rules. The overwhelming majority of fines aren't handed out for 'hanging a wheel just one inch out of a parking bay' however. The mobile units are often searching for untaxed, registered, and / or insured cars. It?s true that when you put a camera in place of a human being, there is often a loss of discretion. However, you cannot have traffic officers as easily / widely deployed. Cameras are an efficient way discouraging / catching law breaking. I do agree that there should be much better appeals procedures, which are quick and simple and help address the few (highly publicised and quickly latched on) silly cases. I don?t buy the whole ?poor, persecuted drivers? guff though (and I speak as a driver myself, who remarkably manages to avoid the army of anti-car crusaders, randomly fining people for no good reason).

[MrLoxley]

@Tarzan

"don't break the rules and you won't be punished"

Wow, what an exciting person you must be to hangout with. What a loser

[Earl Aelfheah]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's a bit of a silly argument... it goes round in

> circles, and doubtless will continue to do so

> again and again.

>

> carnell, straferjack, rahrah, etc are all right in

> that road enforcement is necessary to help traffic

> flow, and maintain road safety. We all know that.

> But at the same time, the individuals who do the

> job often use sneaky, predatory tactics, in order

> to meet the targets set for them - even going as

> far as handing out blatantly incorrect penalties

> on the off-chance that the recipient won't contest

> it. Again and again, their behaviour has been

> shown to be nothing short of disgraceful. And yet

> people wonder why they receive so much hostility?

>

> The solution is to remove artificial targets and

> financial incentives, and stop outsourcing the

> work to these cowboys.

What a sensible post. Add in a quick and simple appeals process and a lot of the hostility to traffic enforcement would disappear.

[MrLoxley]

@rahrahrah

Very 'sensible' post. Well done

[PeckhamRose]

I'm with James May on this.

There should be just one law. For everything.

The law is, Don't Be A Prat.

It does mean that some thinking is involved, and personal responsibility has to be increased and all that soft stuff, but it makes a huge difference.

When MrPR did some teaching of young teenagers he announced there was only going to be one rule. They loved him already. Then he told them what it was. And he had them.

It could easily be applied to The Road.

Earth to PeckhamRose, your time is up.

Back on the bike!

[DJKillaQueen]

Lot's of stats of numbers and types of fines issued in the final pages of;

Parking enforcement 2009-2010

Page 68 onwards gives insight to the cost versues revenue of parking management.

Budget Book 2010/11

[Earl Aelfheah]

MrLoxley Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> @rahrahrah

>

> Very 'sensible' post. Well done

I love the way you think your ?devil may care? attitude to mundane traffic offences makes you really fun and interesting, when essentially you're just whining about being caught and at the same time suggesting that no one's done anything wrong.

You're sure not sensible, you crazy cat you.

[Loz]

> The solution is to remove artificial targets and

> financial incentives, and stop outsourcing the

> work to these cowboys.

I think the solution is to make a council/contractor pay the car owner the amount of the fine for every ticket issued incorrectly and appealed. See how fast the problem disappears then.

[MrLoxley]

I think the people in favour of these vehicles have not read the first post @straferjack @rahrahrah....

" One of these cars this morning was parked opposite Tesco on East Dulwich Rd, near Kings on the rye trying to catch people in the bus lane. I saw him get out of his car, take a "Traffic Enforcement in Operation" sign down, put it in his boot and carry on"

This guy was taking down a notice alerting people and carrying on so he could be covert. Putting the sign in his boot

[pk]

i liked the bit about those not outraged by this being the ones with mundane lives, shame you edited it Loxley

[James Barber]

Latest figures I looked at - all revenue from parking tickets, parking permits etc ?11M pa. Costs to enforce ?7.5M.

Surplus on the parknig revenue account ?3.5M. The surplus is used to pay for things like lolly pop men and women, road crossing training for young and old, etc.

BUT to drive a car you have to pass a test. That test is meant to ensure everyone knows the rules of the road.

You only get tickets by breaking those rules. The best way to see these annoying cars removed is ensuring they're not making a profit.

...but they do seem extra zealous at the moment.

[Mr.Edwards]

Thanks for this James. I understand that we must all know the rules of the road and it is to be enforced if people are bending rules by using bus lanes etc but for me, and the reason i posted today (usually i just see these cars, get a bit cross and move on with my business) is that he removed a 'Traffic Enforcement in operation sign' there to alert people, put it in his boot and carried on filming.

Surely you cant agree that this is ok ?

I also saw an old couple ages ago stop at the edge of a bus lane (he dropped her off, and then moved on). The camera guy blatantly took the number plate and issued a ticket. There was a lady outraged by this standing near the enforcement vehicle, which is what got my attention.

Again are you happy with this ?

3.5 million on lollipop people in Southwark ? Christ !!!!!!

[Mrs Fishy]

Mr Loxley.....I love your 'devil may care' attitude. Fancy a drink sometime?! ;)

[kford]

"The mobile units are often searching for untaxed, registered, and / or insured cars."

Not these mobile units, unless James can correct me otherwise. That's done by the police mobile ANPR units and DVLA's mobile ANPR vans. You'll see them driving round the streets, plain white VW Transporters with a camera on each corner of the roof.

These cameras are operated by contractors, such as NCP or the US-based APCOA. They are experts in collecting parking fines mostly.

[Loz]

I can say with some confidence that at least 99.99% of people in the UK do not know all the road rules. And that includes those who are sent out to enforce them. That's not a slur on everyone, just a truism that there are far too many road rules for a non-expert to ever know.

For instance, can you confidently say (no googling now...) that you know the rules for, say, box junctions? It's not as simple as you might think. When can you park on yellow lines? What constitutes a legal road sign?

So for those that say, "just don't break the rules', I hope you a part of the tiny, tiny minority that actually know what they are. All of them. Otherwise, you are talking poppycock.