St Anthony's Primary School extension

[tomk]

The St Anthony?s admissions criteria is as fair as, if not fairer than, any other school?s in the area. After SEN/looked-after etc, it is dependent on faith, and anybody can be Catholic. It is not a closed shop. Contrast this with the other popular ED schools such as Heber, Goodrich etc which are all totally dependent on how close you live (not whether you are walking/cycling distance) which effectively selects children on how much money their parents have (average house price around either school - ?700k+? Rents higher also) or how lucky they have been with social housing placement. Village Infants even throws out your CofE application if you have a CofE school closer, regardless of that school?s oversubscription/performance.

My children will never be able to go to Heber, DVI etc simply as I cannot afford an expensive enough house - but you wouldn?t find me complaining about one of them receiving public money for a much-needed/demanded expansion.

I notice nobody is arguing for a lottery system based on reasonable walking distance (one mile?) which is arguably the ?fairest? system of all.

?

[ClareC]

Not intending to add fuel to the fire, genuinely interested.....

Why do catholic schools only admit catholics whereas their CoE counterparts have non faith places? Surely church attendance is more likely to increase if non catholic children were admitted too?

The irony is it's the parents religion not the kids that counts, the kids are not old enough to choose.

As for anyone can choose to be catholic...... Surely that's not the case, do you not need to believe and have faith?

[Gubodge]

And average house prices around either school - ?700k+

Bloody hell! I must get my house revalued. As should everyone living in Dawsons Heights. Have you been checking prices in Foxton's window? Because I'd have said ?700k is not far from the top of the market for the Goodrich catchment and very far from the average, whether mean, median or mode.

[Tony Rabbit]

This school is a real asset to the area and is doing better than most. OFSTED Good (grade 2) and very nearly a grade 1 http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/oxedu_reports/download/(id)/74021/(as)/100852_276405.pdf it is overdue for a 'makeover' and if the outcome of that means an increased intake then more to the benefit of ED.

[JDR]

I'm not religious but with regards to the comments about a regular chruch goer trying to get a place and the comments that the policy at St Anthonys being more fair than most...

I have a good friend whose husband is a devout (sp?) catholic and attends church regularly with their three chidlren. They live in peckham and knew they would not get into St Anthonys but there is actually an interfaith agreement between schools that has been agreed saying that they can each apply to other religeous schools and they will be given priority even if not their 'version' of that religion ie catholic-C of E and vice versa. This is how their children got into St johns and st clements. It would seem very sad of the powers in charge of schooling/scouts weren't respecting this reciprocal arrangement to other 'christians' when location os included. I'm aware its oversubscribed but the year my freidn got into St Johns, so was that and we didn't get a place and we lived closer (non christians). Whatever the exact fairness of the systems, and there is pretty much no way to genuinely get fairness there will always be someone who is unhappy. Choose your school - middle classes largely win out, religeon its possible to misrepresent, distance causes house price issues and therefore the better off win. There is no ideal, people just 'play' the system in front of them. I can say I never have but that has resulted in my daughter being unhappy in school I hoped would be ok for her but always suspected would not meet her (personality/non academic) needs and this has proven true. She is now about to move schools as we played the game straight, but its been fraught and complicated and recently quite stressful due to her younger sister starting school and trying to get them in the same school.

All in all increasing the number of school places will largely help all children in the area as they will be able to go to a more local school that they want... even if not directly affected, a lot will be indirectly in that they will get places that are vacated by these chidlren. At least all of us should hope that chidlren and staff are in schools that are safe and dry... not a description Mr barber paints and so I hope for all that the school gets the refurb, and encouragement and if necessary STRONG reinforcement over parking (I'd be really harsh and if persistent offenders, maybe their priveledged place should be placed at risk if they spoil the schools reputation - the ultimate betrayal!)

Sorry for long thread but had 2 glasses of wine..

[silverfox]

JDR, St Anthony's School is over subscribed by 3.5 to 1. That means many Catholics cannot get their children into that school.

Explain to me how your friend (no mention of wife's/partner's affiliation) has been discriminimated against in a way that the other 2.5 (ratio) applicants who were rejected haven't been.

Same question to BarryBarry whose inaugural post wasn't as innocent as some would like to think

[barrybarry]

I have been interested to read the replies to my post and I do agree with some of the points - faith schools making it possible for lower income families to get into better schools etc. I'm honestly happy to have my opinion changed - I'm not sure if that makes me 'innocent' or not.

I continue to feel a bit sad that the school we walk past every day will not/can not educate them. I understand that it is oversubscribed and I suppose you could argue the same for the cubs, but I genuinely think it is healthy for Catholics and non-Catholics to mix. I would like to reiterate that my children have a place at a (slightly further away) community school which I and they are happy with. I will teach my children about God at home and church and when they continue to ask me why they aren't allowed to go to St Anthony's or to the cubs that had that nice summer fair the other week, I'll keep trying to explain that it is full. They're bound to be interested in all the building work that will be going on over the road. I just wish I could tell them it was going to lead to a more inclusive school.

[sillywoman]

Tony Rabbit Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> This school is a real asset to the area and is

> doing better than most. OFSTED Good (grade 2) and

> very nearly a grade 1

> http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/oxedu_reports/download/(i

> d)/74021/(as)/100852_276405.pdf it is overdue for

> a 'makeover' and if the outcome of that means an

> increased intake then more to the benefit of ED.

I disagree TonyR, this exclusive & excluding school is an asset only to the small Catholic community in the area - and if what silverfox says, only 30% or so of them - not at all to the Ed community in all it's multi-cultural glory. But then, Im completely against faith schools in all their forms. It's makeover will be of no benefit, and may possibly be to the detriment of ED if the parking issues caused by 'out of area' parents aren't properly addressed.

[Tony Rabbit]

I wonder how far sillywoman's faith hate extends quote; "I'm completely against faith schools in all their forms."

Virtually every school in the 'developing world' (politically correct phrase for those extremely poor, suffering countries) are church foundation, relying on their pitiful existence almost entirely on charitable giving from their sponsoring church (of any denomination). Would sillywoman (and the other Faith Haters) also seek to remove these in their 16th century quest of sterile educational world domination and deny millions of children worldwide the privilage of even basic reading and writing?

[civilservant]

Tony R - I do so laud your concern for extremely poor suffering countries and the pitiful existence of their church foundation schools!

I myself, although a non-Catholic, went to one of these charitable institutions, of which you seem to know so much, in a country in the 'developing world'. It occupied a vast and extremely valuable tract of real estate in the middle of the capital city and was clearly lavishly funded and endowed. However, it understood the value of taking in children from a wide range of religious backgrounds - even (gasp!) Muslims - provided of course that they could afford the fees (which were pretty steep for this extremely poor suffering country...).

So I'm nonplussed when I see church schools in this country try to keep themselves free of pagan/heathen/atheist heresies by keeping non-Christians at arms' length.

Another thing - as for providing millions of children the 'privilage of even basic reading and writing', you might want to investigate the phenomenon of the 'rice Christian' and how churches in the Third World have exploited the extremely poor suffering populations.

Anyway, back home in ED, how is this school doing a good job?

It insists on excluding the majority of the local population, it insists on keeping its kids in some kind of faith-based ghetto, its policies cause nuisance to local residents. Hardly a local asset!

[ClareC]

Christians kept away too...... Catholicism is not the only Christian faith.

[ClareC]

Is anyone able to answer my question as to why this school excludes all non Catholics rather than designating a certain number of places as faith like other faith schools?

[Tony Rabbit]

civilservant.

Your experience of schooling in the 'third world' contrasts vividly with my own. I returned last year after helping to set up a school in a very poor country. All we had to start with was local Christian donations and a container full of second hand school seats, desks, books etc. Fortunately an American church came on board and we could get things moving along better but staffing is still a real problem.

I will admit that the big difference between Church Foundation Schools in these countries is that they will accept any child regardless of religious background.

The Church of England have revised their policies in this respect.

The RC I will admit are still reticent. The RC children will continue to receive religious indoctrination (other peoples phrasing) regardless of any school they may attend.

I will admit that St Anthony's would be better if it had a more 'open house' attitude but that still doesn't divorce us from the fact that they are achieving very well (in fact far better than their nearest state competitor) and that stands as credit to the school and a credit to ED.

Logistically I don't know where the children would be placed if it were to be closed. All the local schools have been converting store rooms, ICT rooms, cloakrooms, to try and find space to accomodate the 'bulge' classes without having another c300 children thrown into the melting pot.

Reading Politicians please note that as previously suggested it would be supported, if public funding was approved, that the school, as a condition of the funding, should actively admit other faiths locally.

I totally disregard the tattle about parking as applied to St Anthonys in particular. Every school is a mad house of cars am / pm and I hate urban 4x4 more than anyone. We could start a new Thread on that topic perhaps.

Third world exploitation I didn't mention because it leads too far from the post but I am sure, civilservant, that we will agree on that point, in all its disguises, even if we disagree elsewhere.

[tomk]

Most of these recent posts about 'exclusivity' are just empty rhetoric. All school catchments based on distance exclude. Heber catchment is now about 400metres - how does this school serve anyone in ED other than a select few? Should we stop all public funds heading its way until it opens its doors to 'all the ED community'. I live about 1/2 mile from Heber (easy walk) but was told by the receptionist that although I could apply for a place, there was not much point as my child wouldn't get in. DVI/DH provide for one of the most privileged catchments in Southwark and show no interest in addressing this (and I am referring to the Open places here, not the religious foundation ones). Live outside the North Dulwich triangle/Village/bottom of Lordship Lane and you may as well not bother. I am not attacking these schools, but the idea that St Ants is 'excluding' all others is, in this context, totally false. It is important to note that the admissions criteria for St Ants does not exclude non-catholics, they are just lower in the order of preference when oversubscribed. Equally all the oversubscribed community schools 'exclude' children who do not live on their doorstep - these are lower in the order of preference also.

In response to some of the other points:

A. St Ant's catchment for last year was geographically bigger than most other ED schools. - strange for such an 'exclusive' school - furthest was I believe Nunhead.

B. Almost all students live in SE22, one or two SE15 or Forest Hill. The parking issue is being stirred up for some of the reasons alluded to above (anti-faith schools, anti-Catholic - search the thread titled something like 'St Anthony's Catholic school for idiots' if you don't believe me). But hey, if it says it on the EDF then it must be true, right? Clowns, anyone?

C. The idea that St Ant's is not multicultural/representative of the local community? I personally know parents whose ethnicity may be described as(though at the school we don't really care about where you come from): African (Nigerian, Ghanaian); Caribbean; Spanish; Filipino; Portuguese;Lithuanian; Polish; Indian; Malaysian; Irish; English; Welsh; Italian; Puerto Rican. And this is just me personally. Again, it's a lazy stereotype about the school which people don't apply to DVI, St Johns and St Clement, Heber etc despite their clear parallels.

D. As for the nonsense about 'it's the parents' religion, not the child's - how ironic!' I would question exactly which parents in ED allow their 4yr old children to choose their own school. In my book that would be negligent parenting, not irony.

E. It's the best school in ED, due to its catholicity, excellent leadership and teachers, and very committed parents.

(edited once as cross-posted)

[tomk]

ClareC Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Is anyone able to answer my question as to why

> this school excludes all non Catholics rather than

> designating a certain number of places as faith

> like other faith schools?

It doesn't exclude non-catholics (it might be good if someone on this thread actually read the admissions criteria they are so happily attacking). Practicing Catholics are merely prioritised in the event of oversubscription (just as Heber,goodrich and all ED's 'community' schools prioritise those with the financial clout to buy houses next to them or in adjoining roads and 'exclude' all other Southwark tax-payeers, regardless of walking distance to the school). To answer why the Cof E takes non-Christians would take too long so I refer you to Google, but I believe it is something to do with being the official church in this country (hence Bishops in the House of Lords). There is something of a growing movement in the CofE against this (see recent Independent interview with Williams) as some believe it weakens the religious ethos of the school rather than strengthens it - for example all parents agree to support the CofE ethos but in reality some actually oppose it.

[sillywoman]

Yeah-yeah tinyrabbit, whatever. I have no interest in taking what is essentially a localised debate and trying to fit it into a disparate and global picture that bears little or no relevance to our education system here in the UK in order to point score. My interest is purely in children in ED (and anywhere in the UK, come to that) being able to attend the school that they live closest to without fear of exclusion because, as someone so succinctly phrased it earlier in the debate, they have a different 'imaginary friend' to someone else.

Exclusion because of house prices? Well that's another thread I think, and a whole other can of worms. But, should a school who discriminates against children living close to it in favour of those whose who live some distance away because of said imaginary friend be extended and improved at cost to those many can't use it because their invisible friend is wrong, or their channel of communication to him/it is different? No. Simples.

As I said in my previous post. This school is of no benefit to the ED community, it doesn't matter how well it's doing (and I think it's true that the non-exclusive Hamlet is doing miles better), or how many countries its intake comes from (all our schools can do that, we live in multicultural city doh). It isn't serving those on its doorstep, & charity begins at home.

[barrybarry]

According to St Anthony's website, 'The governing body has been unable to offer a place to a non-Catholic applicant at any time in the last 10 years.' I think that's a shame. I don't think you can describe people who would like their children to have a chance of getting into their nearest school (which is Catholic) anti-Catholic. Surely the opposite is true! I would love my children to have some Catholic friends but they aren't going to make any at school or cubs.

[taper]

"...a shame"

Or a disgrace perhaps. It seems that particular "policy" is there as a fig leaf for the reality that non-catholics are blocked from attending this state school. The school puts an onus on the level of a five year old's devotion too, stressing the importance of

"The strength of ..... commitment to practice of The Catholic Faith as demonstrated by the regularity of the family's Mass attendance on Sundays and evidenced on the Supplementary Form by parents/carers. This evidence must be endorsed by a priest at the church(es) where the family normally worship and from whom the school will seek a reference. ?Applications will be ranked in the order shown on the Supplementary Form Firstly those who attend Mass weekly, secondly those who attend Mass most weeks etc."

[Penguin68]

I have no problems with people who want to worship the tooth fairy and want to pay to educate the children of other people who want to worship the tooth fairy (and force their children to worship her) setting up and running their own schools; I object to non tooth fairy worshipers being obliged to co-fund this nonsense. I particularly object to strange variants of tooth fairy worshipers who believe she spins widershins rather than otherwise and set themselves over above other variants, excluding tooth fairy non-widershins believers from their education bonanza - especially if I and the non-widershins believers are part paying for it.

If you want a sectarian religious education, pay for it (all) yourself or with your fellow sectarians.

[James Barber]

I don't like the concept of religious education and seperation BUT this system is based on national government policy developed over many decades.

As a local councillor I think it would be VERY wrong to penalise these kids for a national system that isn't going to change. This school is in dire need of rebuilding in places, some new build and renovation in other parts. 1.5 form entry is sub optimal for the kids and school management and 2FE is considered optimal ie no mixed year classes. So I whole heartedly support this extension and small expansion with a good travel plan being put in place.

It is a very successful and over subscribed school. We need to make all Southwark schools equally successful.

The key for me, and why it was in our local manifesto pledges last year, is that all Southwark schools must become good or outstanding. At that point many of the local dilemmas faced by parents go away and admissions becomes much simpler and less stressful. Church attendance is then through belief rather than for some as another school admissions strategy.

[civilservant]

Tony Rabbit, thank you for clarifying. I think we agree that the problem is the closed-shop that operates at faith schools.

I have no problem about non-secular education in general, but the point here is that we are talking about a primary school that does not serve its local community. Any argument about how all classes and communities rub along so well and result in a super-diverse school will fail against the single fact that even if a small child lives next door to this school, he or she will not be able to attend it because its admission policy discriminates against non-Catholics.

I note with astonishment the unblushing admission somewhere on this thread that 'St Anthony?s admissions criteria is as fair as, if not fairer than, any other school?s in the area. After SEN/looked-after etc, it is dependent on faith, and anybody can be Catholic. It is not a closed shop.'

Eh? was the poster expecting to be taken seriously?

[silverfox]

Are Catholics not part of the community in ED?

[tomk]

civilservant Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Tony Rabbit, thank you for clarifying. I think we

> agree that the problem is the closed-shop that

> operates at faith schools.

>

> I have no problem about non-secular education in

> general, but the point here is that we are talking

> about a primary school that does not serve its

> local community. Any argument about how all

> classes and communities rub along so well and

> result in a super-diverse school will fail against

> the single fact that even if a small child lives

> next door to this school, he or she will not be

> able to attend it because its admission policy

> discriminates against non-Catholics.

>

> I note with astonishment the unblushing admission

> somewhere on this thread that 'St Anthony?s

> admissions criteria is as fair as, if not fairer

> than, any other school?s in the area. After

> SEN/looked-after etc, it is dependent on faith,

> and anybody can be Catholic. It is not a closed

> shop.'

>

> Eh? was the poster expecting to be taken

> seriously?

Ho ho! I like your deliberate misread, aimed at the old 'St Ants parents don't even believe' slur. No, it may surprise you to know that we (almost all) do, and also that you would genuinely be made very welcome were you to come over to St Thomas More to begin he RCIA process. No, it isn't a closed shop at all. Sorry if that doesn't play up to your prejudices about Catholic schools.

[civilservant]

Tomk, I don't understand what you mean by 'deliberate misread'.

You can believe what you like, I have no problem with that, it's a free country and some people believe in Santa Claus after all.

But... I was surprised before by your casuistry and am now nearly speechless with astonishment at how neatly you've fallen into your own trap, implying as you do that the Catholic Church is capable of using even school admissions to 'encourage' people into joining its fold.

[tomk]

Well, I was referring to joining the church rather than joining the school! And I don't actually speak for the Catholic Church either...

But to bring it back on topic, I welcome James Barber's reasoned response to and support for the issue facing the local school and our local children.