Difficult conversations with family members

[Ruth_Baldock]

Hi all,

I really need some insight on this, from someone not involved in the situation (i.e. not my family).

Basically, it's my Mum. We have a...strange (read: horrible) relationship, partly my fault, partly her fault, lots of the fault of my Stepdad. She also lives on the other side of London; Rickmansworth, actually. I don't drive. She still works full-time (these are all very important details...)

Since my son was born, she takes every oppurtunity to guilt trip me about how little she sees him. I've always said she is MORE than welcome to call in the morning, say shes free, and come on over- it's a hell of a lot easier for her to come here, than the other way around (she DOES drive, you see...). A lot of the time, she'll ask to babysit my son for the day, and lately, has been asking when she can have him overnight. 'Never' is my thought, but I haven't ever said this outloud. I've been over there with him when I was ill, and the moment I left the room for a lie-down, he started screaming and Mum would say 'Ruuuuuth, the baby is crrryyyiiiiing!', but wouldn't try to calm him.

Now, my MIL, who lives a 5 minute bus journey from us, is heavily involved with my son- she looks after him twice a week, babysits him, comes over to help out in the day when it's too much, and is always happy to have us drop round for a chat and a cuppa if we're around. She has had our son over-night, and he's been spending more and more nights there to prepare him for when I'm off having his sister (in a few weeks, vomit). He has grown up with her around, is very comfortable and happy to be with her/my FIL/at their house. She knows his routines inside and out, knows his eating habits, what he enjoys, what scares him, etc etc. She is also very calm around his tantrums. My Mum ALWAYS asks 'Why is he crying?' which drives me mental, especially when he was a tiny baby and I felt like saying BECAUSE HE IS A BABY!

Yesterday, my Mum called me up and asked why she couldn't look after him overnight whilst me and my husband have a mini-break this weekend (it's our anniversary). I asked 'Where would Seb sleep?'. She's got a travelcot, but assumed it'd be okay for him to sleep in the travelcot in the livingroom whilst they were all still up in the evening. He's almost 18mo old, and needs a quiet, dark and PEACEFUL environment to sleep in; so that wouldn't be great. I asked if she felt allright cooking for a fussy baby and she assumed he was still on jars. I told her he ate the same as us now. Then she started asking about bottles and formula, none of which he has. He hasn't had a bottle of EBM for ages and ages and his night-time drink of milk is from a cup and straw now, anyway. In short, she hasn't a clue, which shocked me because her youngest is only 6, whereas my MIL didn't have a problem with anything baby-related, and HER youngest is 27.

Whenever she asks 'why won't you let me look after him...?' I always skirt around the issue, because I don't want to tell her the truth; that I don't really trust her, that my son would be scared and unconfident at hers, and that...it's just not going to happen.

How on EARTH do I explain ANY of this to her without offending everyone in sight? We've already had a falling out when I told her that when I was in labour with Seb, the fact that she called the labour ward every 20 minutes for updates (no, I'm not joking) was INFURIATING and she's not to do it again this time, so I don't know how much drama I can take!

[bodsier]

I have pm'd you

[Saffron]

Hey R_B, so sorry to hear you're having a tough time.

From my read of it, your Mum's well-meaning but poorly thought out offers to look after your son overnight seem to say that she feels left out of his life, but also guilty that she doesn't herself make more effort to be part of it. If this is part of a long-standing pattern of behaviour on her part stretching back to your own (or even her own) childhood, you're unlikely to benefit in the long-run from skirting the issue. But you're pretty sharp from what I can tell, so I guess you already know that right?

Have you thought about having a consultation with a Life Coach or Mediator who could help you decide when to make critical interventions? Obviously timing is delicate for you with a new bubba on the way.

xx

[womanofdulwich]

Your MIL sounds fab. Things change all the time, and whilst your mums attitude to looking after your son is not the same as yours, by the time he is a bit older it may seem great. Alos she is working ful time with a 6 year old? sounds pretty generous to even think of offering to babysit this special weekend. I think you have to think long term, you will fell sensitive about your history at the moment, having a second baby sounds like it will be tricky, but in the long term you are lucky that she has offered- albeit on terms you don't like, but when your oldest is say 3, and hopefully eating and sleeping in a normal bed then that is when she will come into her own. Play the long game, you are lucky to have a mum and MIL within 1.5 hours.Please stay in touch with her- maybe you can send her a weekly / monthly e mail to keep in touch.

[Ruth_Baldock]

WOD: we talk several times a day, particuarly atm as I'm having difficulty with a few medical things re: new baby. She knows her stuff, and is very good on that side of things. And I agree, working ft with a 6 y/o must be tough, but my stepdad took early retirement and does all childcare (lucky her!)

my MIL is an absolute godsend; we certainly don't share the same views on a lot of things but she's welcomed me Ito her family as if I was her own daughter and I don't know how we'd have coped over the past 17mo w/o her, although at times her concern has been downright interfering- we do seem to have come to a silent agreement re: interference though.

Saffron; I have seriously considered a mediator before and know my sister is explorig this seriously ATM (she has similair issues with our Mum, and has a 10am old bf baby that my mum keeps badgering her to mix-feed so she can have him for a weekend; mum bf us all into toddlerhood so hearing this from her, as I did, shocked us both to the point of tears). You are bang on the money in what you said re: guilt though.

[Belle]

I don't think it would be unreasonable on your par to suggest something less amibitious than an overnight stay as a 'starting point' e.g. for her to have him an odd hour here/there while you pop out (that way you can't be recalled to help!). That might be a way of enabling her to realise what his needs are etc without it being stressful for you? If it's more that you don't want her to have him full stop at the moment, I'd perhaps avoid direct confrontation on the matter for now: you have enough on your plate. Easy enough to make excuses given distance, stuff she'd need for him etc. Not saying you shouldn't address it - just that you need to prioritise yourself, hubbie, two babies first.

[Ruth_Baldock]

Excellent point, I know she's free when me and mr b are meeting with a consultant at kings (again) next week so may ask her to look after seb at ours whilst we waddle off to the hospital for an hr or so...

[Pugwash]

My MIL only babysat once in 20 years - she only lived in West Dulwich and we used to visit her frequently and hubby phoned her and FIL weekly. MIL always admitted she did not like children and was glad her only child was a boy (which FIL wanted). MIL only liked older children and first (and only time) baby sat when our youngest was in primary school, for about 4 - 5 hours.

My mother on the other hand visited weekly most weeks and always ready to babysit either at our house or hers. She retained a strong interest in her grandchildren and great grandchildren until her death in March. Strange thing was I could not say I was close to my mother, my husband was much closer to her emotionally ( even more so than his own mother}. We had different child rearing views and often clashed, but my daughters loved going to Gran's.

[Pocket]

Maybe I should book her services instead?!

Good luck x

[zeban]

I completely agree with pocket

[helena handbasket]

Pocket that's so unfair. You have no idea what the family history is, and children don't suddenly turn on their mothers for no reason.

Ruth I have no advice but obviously I know where you're coming from and it sucks. Boundaries would be my answer, but I know how hard it is to judge how rational your boundaries are so I base mine on the gut test: if my mother's actions are making me feel ill I know she's crossed my boundaries and can set them better next time. I know, scientific right?

Pocket you can borrow my mother for the weekend. See how much therapy you need by Monday.

Zeban. You know full well (from previous thread) that you don't "get it" so why keep adding your unhelpful opinion? Ruth is asking for a bit of advice and insight and being told "you're wrong" is not helpful. Her feelings are what they are.

[zeban]

HH, how dare you tell me I don't 'get it'- get what exactly? difficult family memebers? you don't know my history remember that. And this is a completely different to your scenario so don't use your personal vendetta against me please! I'd try reading the thread again and then you might undertand pocket comment that is very helpful actually and gives some good advice.

[helena handbasket]

Vendetta? Jesus. Don't flatter yourself.

[zeban]

God you're rude. This thread is not about you, your mother, or your circumstances. Equally you do not know the family history of the OP, and she does seem very unfair in comparing the mother to the MIL. They're different people with different mothering styles and you're often going to criticise and nitpick your own mothers style because of some feeling that she did you wrong somewhere along the line. Remember everyones elses mother is perfect of course!

Just because others don't agree with you HH, it doesn't measn they're the ones being unfair, or don't 'get it'. Pocket had some very good and useful advice IMO, and I know others would agree with her/him as others would agree with your views. That's the point of a public forum. I think you're being unnessarily defensive.

[helena handbasket]

If you stopped changing your posts or made any sense I might be interested in discussing this further, but you don't so in the spirit of a peaceful family room I will not engage in your style of chatter. I would hope you will respect the OP and the family room and do the same.

[zeban]

Excuse me??? Oh my god you're so rude HH, I add to my posts not change them thank you, that's not a crime as far as I'm aware.

I'm not interested in having a discussion with you at all only to say this thread isn't about you, and it's a shame that's exactly what you've turned it into- offering your Mum to Pocket and saying she/he'll need therapy after that! my posts are not unhelpful, neither was Pocket's. If you read Pocket's post you'll see it's constructive, neither rude, unhelpful or patronising, so to pick at it to me shrieks of unnessary defensiveness on your behalf.

[zeban]

And please don't patronise me thank you!

[Family Room Moderator]

I have hidden the unpleasant exchange of messages between two users that occurred over night, and would kindly ask that you stay on topic.

Thanks,

FRM

[Smiler]

I think it is harsh on Ruth and unhelpful to tell her to "remember how lucky you really are". Many, many threads on this forum concern issues that are, in comparison with others' problems, not major, but obviously if someone has posted about an issue then it is a problem for them, and such posts deserve some constructive help rather than a "shut up and be grateful" line.

Also think it is harsh to give Helena a hard time.

Ruth, I find it helpful to remind myself that no-one else has "rights" to take care of our kids. I don't feel we have to justify ourselves, if we don't want them having them for whatever reason, we just say "no thank you". People may get jealous of other GPs, family members etc, but that's their problem and we just don't get drawn in. If the GP or whoever wants to discuss it properly and raises it, that's fine, we'd explain our reasons carefully, but would ignore snide comments/hints!

wrt unwanted advice re breastfeeding etc. - I get lots of this, and have started being much more assertive about simply stating that we do X, Y and Z (again with no explanations, justification) and, if they press, being a bit rude (e.g. "why do you keep going on about this", "can we change the subject please", "we will decide, thanks!", and even "did you really say that out loud? Again?", laughing and shaking head etc etc). Perhaps not mature, but it has worked quite well!

Also, grandparents' relationship with grandchildren naturally flows from the primary relationship with the parents, so if that isn't ideal, then the GPs shouldn't expect everything to be perfect all of a sudden and need to focus on addressing issues with their son/daughter/in-laws. Sadly, if there is a long history and the parent hasn't been that great as a parent, some won't be able to do that (have been there), but they may at least back of wrt the grandkids.

[ClaireClaire]

Hello,

I would like to just step in quickly and defend Pocket, because I am in a similar situation to her and I have to admit that I agree with her point of view. I also think she expressed it quite gently and diplomatically, and I don't understand why there has been such a negative backlash against her comment. Ruth did ask for insight, and she was offered an opinion that was different from her own. With all respect and goodwill (truly not meaning to stir things up here), if you really only want certain kinds of comments or feedback, maybe you would have been better off asking this question to a personal group of friends, rather than an open public forum?

Claire

[Otta]

If your kids have no grandparents, that is a shame. However, it is a completely different situation, and therefore can't really be compared. It's easy to say "we'd be gratefull to have a grandparent around" but you've no idea how that would effect your family. We have been very very lucky with grandparents and child care, and I'm very gratefull. That doesn't mean it doesn't come with it's own set of issues.

[zeban]

ClaireClaire Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hello,

>

> I would like to just step in quickly and defend

> Pocket, because I am in a similar situation to her

> and I have to admit that I agree with her point of

> view. I also think she expressed it quite gently

> and diplomatically, and I don't understand why

> there has been such a negative backlash against

> her comment. Ruth did ask for insight, and she was

> offered an opinion that was different from her

> own. With all respect and goodwill (truly not

> meaning to stir things up here), if you really

> only want certain kinds of comments or feedback,

> maybe you would have been better off asking this

> question to a personal group of friends, rather

> than an open public forum?

>

> Claire

Thank you so much ClaireClaire, that's exactly the point I was trying to make last night and instead got extremely rudely shot down by another forumite who again didn't like a comment I made on another thread about her and her mother. Unfortunately now admin has hidden all I had to say so I really appreciate someone who feels the same because I know I'm not alone in my point of view.

I've come across people becoming extremely aggressive just because they don't like another point of view even though they're choosing to post on a public forum. I could very easily talk about mine and my mothers relationship in the past, my sisters eating disorder, many extremely personal things about myself to show that I do actually 'get it' but quite frankly these things are too personal for a public forum. If I need advice about such things I talk to my friends.

[Otta]

Ruth did ask for insight, and she was offered an opinion that was different from her own.

No she wasn't.

Ruth asked for advise about a specific issue, and was then told to stop moaning. It wasn't an opinion, it was completely irrelevant.

If I started a thread about how I was finding it hard to play a particular song on the guitar, and asking if any other guitarists could offer any advise. I wouldn't really expect someone to come on and say "you should just be grateful you can play guitar at all, I can't", as that would be completely irrelevant. I don't really see how this is different.

[sillywoman]

Hmmm, tricksy one all round. I do get where pocket's coming from. I'm in the same situation with no effective grandparents MrS's parents both dead, my Dad in the US, & Mum really can't be arsed to make the effort) & it is very hard to read of Ruth's 'heavily involved' MIL, and then try to empathise with her issues with her own Mum not being so involved. Especially when her Mum does seem to be making quite an effort to be involved in little Sebs life, she's just not being very sensitive or thoughtful about it. However I'm inclined to agree with those who have said that P's 'get over yourself' tone is unhelpful. And help is what Ruth has asked for

Ruth, For what it's worth, I think you can't aim to change your Mum, but you can change how you respond to her. She does sound like she's making the right noises, she also sounds like she's got a lot on her plate. You say she has a child of 6, and works full time. You also mention you don't have a good relationship with her because of your stepfather. Is the child of 6 your half-brother? If so might there be some difficult 'second family' issues here? i.e. Might you be feeling that she's putting all her parenting into her 'new' family, and not being a Mum to you, or Nana to Seb? If so then this would impact on how you feel she deals with Seb. Your lovely MIL sounds like she treats Seb as an important individual and makes effort to take on board his likes/dislikes, hopes and fears etc. Your Mum doesn't sound like she has the resources to be able to do that as effectively - if at all- maybe because of the demands of her own small child & husband? She sounds like she's trying to fit Seb round her current obligations instead of making time for you & him to build and maintain her relationships with you both. She does sounds like she knows she's missing out on Seb and wants to have a relationship with him but she's trying to almost grab bits of him when she can. Of course you can't do this with small children, you're right. She needs to build a solid relationship him before you can think of him staying overnight with her.

I think your conversation with her needs to be along the lines of "Mum, it would be great if you could look after him, but he's very little and he doesn't know you well enough yet for me to feel comfortable leaving him. I know that you're busy, but maybe we can talk about you finding a regular time to come and get to know him (one Saturday a month for example?). When he's more confident with you then we can discuss you looking after him at your house."

I think the relationship building has to happen at your house, with your childrearing rules initially. You and she,& Seb sound like you need some time together. She may balk initially & get all offended, but once she's thought about it a bit she may well come round to seeing your point.

Of course she may not go for it at all, and I can see that however you do it this will be a difficult conversation, but she's asking you the question Ruth ("why can't I . ."?) so I think you have to have the courage to answer it otherwise it'll bubbly away as a resentment on both sides for, well forever potentially. Go for it - you might be surprised at what comes out of it.

Fingers crossed for you. HTH - a bit.

[gwod]

Ruth, I wonder of you should write her a letter. Sometimes (particulary with parents) it is the only way to fully explain difficult things which fast escalate into an argument or some kind of snub if tackled in 'real time'.

In a letter, you will have the opportunity to iterate the positive things of this situation...for example...how much help she has been to you during your pregnancy and how much you have valued her support and willingness to step in for overnight stays etc and its is something you feel sure that will be fantastic for Seb as he gets older.... and then explain some of your reservations....for example....but right now, sometimes its easier to have MIL help as she is geographically more able to know his daily routines etc.

You can reassure her that (if it is true) you are keen to foster a good relationship between them going forward but that at the moment, to ensure a relaxing break with your man, you would prefer him to be somewhere that you know he is immediately comfortable. You would also get the chance to say how difficult you have found it to broach this subject as you do not want her to feel hurt or rejected. Finish with love and thanks (much easier to do this in writing) and hope that it is the foundation for an honest open discussion.

Just writing the letter will help to christallise your thoughts and make you think about her point of view you can decide whether or not to send it once you read it back-

Best of luck.

PS just read this back, man, I sound so didactic!