Thank you to those who took my OP for What it was - a warning.

[NannyAdelle]

I feel I have successfully spread a warning to those willing to receive it was intended.

[duchessofdulwich]

The fact that you reported these men to the PCSO's and they did not take the filming equipment away from them for futher investigations is very disturbing

[Belle]

Just mentioned this to my mum who suggested if anyone sees these two or similar, might be an idea to take a picture of them - useful to show police etc if there is cause for concern? They wouldn't be in much position to object! Does sound odd as you say, something about the way they reacted doesn't seem right.

[BB100]

It's not illegal to film/photograph adults or children if they are in a public place, however you have a right to question their motives.

[Trish]

If the individuals are part of a crowd then it isn't illegal, but if the camera is clearly pointed at a specific person and they are essentially the main subject of the picture, then permission is required, especially when children are involved.

[leta]

IT IS ILEGAL TO FILM WITHOWT PERMISSION

I KNOW THAT FOR A FACT.

IT HAPPEN TO ME IN HORNIMAN MUSEUM,IT WAS A DISABLE BOY FILMING CHILDREN.WHEN HE FILM ONE OF MINE I TOLD HIM STRAIGHT AWAY NOT TO IN A NICE WAY AND THE FATHER TALKED WITH HIM.

BUT IF I WILL SEE SOMEONE DOING THAT I WILL JUMP RIGHT AWAY.MY DAUGHTER LIKES TO TAKE PICTURE AND FILM BUT SHE KNOWS NOT TO FILM OR TAKE PICTURE OF ANYBODY

[pk]

what's the law that makes this illegal? is it criminal?

[DaveR]

I'm pretty sure it's not a crime, nor illegal in any other way, to film either an adult or a child in a public place without their consent, and on the face of it neither a police officer nor a PCSO would have any legal power to seize a camera or insist on footage being deleted. Having said that, filming or taking pictures of someone else's kids (unless you are taking pics of an event - carniaval, parade etc.) is so obviously sensitive that it is (at best) stupid to do it without making sure people are happy with it.

Just out of interest, NannyAdelle, did you think about speaking to them yourself?

[Saffron]

Belle Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Just mentioned this to my mum who suggested if

> anyone sees these two or similar, might be an idea

> to take a picture of them -

I agree, and go a step further:

When you think someone is filming you, if you can, start FILMING them filming you. It's better evidence than a still photo and would hopefully quickly deter them.

DaveR, if NannyAdelle is a woman, I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't feel that she could directly approach the men herself in a situation where she probably felt shocked and confounded by such weird behaviour.

Leta, can you point us to the law or bylaw under which filming and photography in public places is illegal? I was under the impression that this is a grey area that is not fully covered under current legislation.

[Coach Beth]

Any time you pass a CCTV camera in a public place or in a shop you are being filmed without your consent. I googled this topic as I'm curious and the answer seems to point to that it is not illegal to film people in public places without their consent UNLESS they are in a place where they can reasonably expect privacy i.e a restroom, a changing room, etc. And many famous street photography images of people (i.e.I'm thinking of 'The Kiss' by Bresson of two lovers kissing on a busy street) are of people in public where they were snapped unawares. Or think of newspaper images of scenes of disasters or tragedies or riots - those people have not been asked for their consent before the journalist took their photo and then published it. Or put it on You Tube - think of the woman who put that cat in the bin for a 'joke' - she had been filmed unawares by the couples CCTV and then they posted the clip of her identifed on You Tube. I don't like what that woman did with the cat - but she was filmed without her knowledge and then the film was posted all over You Tube.

Having said that, I completely agree that it is not nice for two strangers to film a child while playing - it's very unsettling and not nice - particularly when it is just your child. I would have thought if they were geninue students of filmaking they would have found the parents, told them what they were doing (i.e. making a film or documentary) and then sought permission.

[Ant]

DaveR's hit it on the head: it's not illegal, but it is insensitive and at best naive - or stupid, if you prefer. They could just be keen on filming and lacking in social skills. Could be. But it sounds iffy to me.

[JadeBond159]

I'm adelles sister who was with her at the time, the 2 men was walking along, stoped- directly pointed the camara at my nephew for about 20 seconds, giggled to each other and walked off through bushes!! You are not aloud to film or take pictures of people with out there concent- esp little children in the park! That's just wrong....

[zeban]

I take pictures of people when I travel. It's not illegal. I agree with Ant though

[Otta]

I agree with Any & DaveR. It does sound a bit weird, but your description does sound like it could be a father and son, so perhaps their story was true.

That said, good work for bringing it up, and hopefully, everyone will just watch out a bit more.

[Saffron]

Hmm, I don't think I'd be inclined to be that generous. Even if they are a father and son, they could still be a couple of pervs.

[NannyAdelle]

Certain individuals on this forum quite clearly 'know it all' so im jumping ship now. you can discuss the law amongst yourselves. As we all know the bottom line is the two men in question were doing wrong and knew it!

[Otta]

Hmm, I don't think I'd be inclined to be that generous. Even if they are a father and son, they could still be a couple of pervs.

I just think it's very sad that we live in a society, where our first thought is that someone must be a pervert. I am not a naive person, and whatever their reason for filming, they certainly should've asked for consent first. However, it seems that people are all too quick to jump from filming a kid playing in the park, to filming a kid playing in a park, because you're a weird perv.

[Saffron]

Otta, in any other instance, I would agree with you. It's just a different matter to me when young children are involved. Deviants prey on the fact that most people want to assume the best about others. They exploits our essentially kind and trusting natures to cover their own immoral behaviour.

The thing that would be even more sad for us as a society , would be if we let people get away with immoral behaviour b/c we didn't want to confront them over it. It's sad that perverts prey on children. It's not sad that we as a society should be vigilant for them.

[JadeBond159]

Fair enough if there was a film crew filming and my nephew being in the back ground- that's fine, but for someone to walk past, get there mobile phone out, record my nrphew for 20 seconds, giggle and walk off.. I think that's wrong. Why would he need this on the phone?

As adelle said this is not a discussion about the law surrounding camera use, its for awarness of what's going on in our area!

[DaveR]

I think it's fair to discuss the legal position because people should know what they can do, and what they can expect police and/or PCSOs to do if a complaint is made. I'm surprised at what the OP was told because I think police would be on thin ice legally detaining a person, seizing camera, deleting photos etc. It is widely believed that taking photos of children without consent is illegal, but I don't think it is, and it's better that people know that.

To be clear, I'm not criticising the OP for not approaching directly - that's a decision that she made in all the circumstances, and I can understand perfectly well why she didn't. But I think it makes it harder to say "I don't believe their explanation" if it was given to someone else.

[StraferJack]

Was it not possible that the child was actually doing something amusing and giggleworthy ?

I was at goose green fair the other week and I recorded several instances

[mockney piers]

Pervert!!

[Belle]

If that was the case why did they not explain themselves as such StraferJack?

Otta - I know what you mean, I agree it's sad that there is so much paranoia relating to often innocent situations. However there is something about this scenario that doesn't feel right, and when I put myself in the position of it being my own little boy, I know I'd feel very uncomfortable about it. Whether they are father/son is irrelevant really. Hopefully it was just a bit of insensitive behaviour, but I symapthise with the mum and aunt concerned.

Agree helpful to have clarification of what's legal.

[mockney piers]

I can't help but get a sense of deja vu.

I'll just sharpen my pitchfork.

[StraferJack]

Because they didn?t see they were doing anything wrong? Because it was an ?in the moment? kind of thing?

If I had to explain myself to everyone around me when I was videoing at goose green fair, lest they think I was a pervert there wouldn?t be time

It?s possible these guys were dodgy. Possible. But I wouldn?t be so quick to make the assumption based on what I?ve read here. Nor am I saying that parents shouldn?t be cautious ? but it is possible to be too cautious, no?