Pro Cuts Rally Today 14/05

[thomastillingthe3rd]

oi muppet yourself miss piggy !

You don't half waffle some nonsense.

Chippy stated BA made money, the FT and the shareholders agreed, you went in with both feet like an overexcited wally trashing chippys credibility but as usual you got it wrong. BA's stock and shares rose at the time and they got a positive outlook from the city, thats how business operates wonder brain.

So no confusion jeremy , that is the half year operating results from BA for 2011, with projections on how they run as a business in the next 6months, all normal.

as for my original premise it is called irony , you grumpy little man. The rally was actually organised by a conservative group called the tax payers alliance, funded by tory donors. No-one turned up !! thats the irony,

So hugue 'mouth almighty' not ...and his sandwich business, mines an egg salad on brown please and i'll take that for free!

[Huguenot]

Not sure I can see the irony - as Loz pointed out why would anyone turn up to a rally for what they've already got?

Chippy looks like he's perfectly capable of stating his own case. However, I'm sure you've already got the point that the latest half yearly results are the first in a run of five to indicate a possible profit. We won't know until the full year results and the disclosure of some of those missing lines on the books, and we're still 3/4 of a billion in the red.

The positive results were, as we've discussed ad nauseam, attributed to the restructuring and they didn't pay a dividend, thus negating your Socialist Worker take on the business.

In repeating this you are merely reinforcing my point.

Please view my unwillingness to send you a sandwich as an act of charity towards your shirt. If your sandwich eating is as accurate as your prose we'll have a little bit of a mess on our hands.

[silverfox]

Posted by: StraferJack Yesterday, 09:00AM

"TT3 is a bit like silverfox

No matter which side of a debate they reside on you hope against hope it?s not the same side as you"

-------------------------------------------

I agree with StraferJack (give me a shout SJ when you need help)

[katie1997]

Loz Wrote:

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> "What do we want?"

> "What we've got!"

> "When do we want it?"

> "Um - we've got it already."

>

> A bit pointless really.

Er ... I thought that they were complaining about the extent of cuts not going far or deep enough (than the ones that have already been proposed?) So not exactly campaigning for the status quo at all. Unless I have misunderstood.

[Huguenot]

I guess so katienumbers, but.... it was the taxpayers alliance.

There's not an honest bone in their body. I'm not sure it makes sense to rationalise it or draw conclusions (see silverfox and get your milk token withdrawn).

[El Pibe]

Double dip recession and sixth monthly increase in unemployment.

Did the Tory's commitment to cuts never actually have aplan b, or was economic shrinkage always a necessary but unpleasant aspect of their ideological policies?

(yes your honour, leading the witness....)

[Loz]

What double dip recession?

[El Pibe]

The one we're probably in, even if not, it's not good news however it's spun.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-1616085/Economy-watch-Is-Britain-heading-recession.html

[Chippy Minton]

Blimey, time to move to Mexico, Rwanda or Iran where things are obviously much more stable.

[El Pibe]

Errr, yeeeeah.

Q. Is sticking with the cuts sensible?

A. Go back to North Korea.

Twonk.

[Undisputedtruth]

A Tory government is synonymous with recession.

[El Pibe]

Really?

I'm pretty sure they've sat over many booms and busts.

It was brown who thought he'd abolished the latter....whoops.

In all fairness you can't really lay the recession at the door of the coalition. I was merely asking if the coalition can admit that things haven't turned out as they hoped for, given that they were so convinced that pulling the plaster would be beneficial and that the economy would soon rebalance with the private sector expanding thanks to the lifting of the welfare cross the nation bore, would they be willing to consider another way.

Sheesh, try writing a sentence that long!

*long sentence edited for clarity*

[Loz]

Undisputedtruth Wrote:

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> A Tory government is synonymous with recession.

Who was in charge during the most recent recession? Oh, yes that Labour PM Gordon Brown.

Honestly - do actually believe the tripe you type?

[Undisputedtruth]

El Pibe Wrote:

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> Really?

> I'm pretty sure they've sat over many booms and

> busts.

> It was brown who thought he'd abolished the

> latter....whoops.

Under the Tories the recessions during the 1980s and 1990s were deep and long.

> In all fairness you can't really lay the recession

> at the door of the coalition.

Why not?

> I was merely asking

> if, given that they were so convinced that pulling

> the plaster would be beneficial and that the

> economy would soon rebalance with the private

> sector expanding thanks to the lifting of the

> welfare cross the nation bore, nothing got better,

> would they be willing to consider another way.

>

> Sheesh, try writing a sentence that long!

The reverse has happened and now we're seeing stagnant growth which undermines savings made from cuts. The reduction of the public sector had more to do with Tories ideology than resolving the economy.

[Undisputedtruth]

Loz Wrote:

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> Who was in charge during the most recent

> recession? Oh, yes that Labour PM Gordon Brown.

>

> Honestly - do actually believe the tripe you type?

Oh yeah, anything negative about the Tories is tripe.

Current unemployment figures are the worse for 17 years. Business as usual for the Tories it seems.

[El Pibe]

I admit that was a long sentence, but I'm not convinced youre actually reading anything I write.

I'll set my stall out for you:

1. The cuts are ideological

2. I think they are damaging the economy, but I'm asking if perhaps the economy is simply screwed and regardless of the approach we'd still be here, hence my question about whether a change of tack would be beneficial, pointless or whether it's worth the pain to bring government debt down in the long run.

Further to your points:

1. Labour's light regulation and impunity for financial irregularities helped get us into this mess whilst their financial mismanagement and overspend based upon an assumption of permanent growth (or housing bubble as we now call it) meant we couldn't get out of this, hence it's not the coalitions fault it's labour's.*

But again I'm asking if the coalition could have done and could do better, and if so what?

Debate ensues.....

*I suppose you could say it was all the Tory's fault as they did the deregulation in the first place and personal debt spiralled under them before going nuclear under labour (no more bust remember!!!)

[Loz]

Undisputedtruth Wrote:

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> Loz Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > Who was in charge during the most recent

> > recession? Oh, yes that Labour PM Gordon Brown.

> >

> > Honestly - do actually believe the tripe you

> type?

>

> Oh yeah, anything negative about the Tories is

> tripe.

Not at all. There is a lot to criticise about the current coalition and the Tories in general. And as I do not vote Tory generally (I think Boris was my only Tory vote ever) then why would I mindlessly defend the Tories as you mindlessly as you attack them?

So writing "A Tory government is synonymous with recession" when it is pretty demonstrably not so is tripe. And it seems you believe it. Thus the question.

[Loz]

El Pibe Wrote:

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> 1. The cuts are ideological

I think that much is so. But, on the other hand, a lot of the opposition to the cuts is entirely ideological too and refuses to acknowledge quite the mess we are in.

The Tories believe in small government; Labour in large government. So Tory cuts are as much ideological as Labour's expansion of government was ideological. But I do think that cuts needed to be made - and so, it seems, does Ed Milliband and the rest of the shadow cabinet. I think these are Tory figures (so treat with due caution) but I believe Labour would have cut ?16 for each Tory ?17 cut?

So I think spending our way out of the recession is not on the table for any major party.

> 2. I think they are damaging the economy, but I'm asking if perhaps the economy is simply screwed

> and regardless of the approach we'd still be here, hence my question about whether a change of tack

> would be beneficial, pointless or whether it's worth the pain to bring government debt down in

> the long run.

I think changing horses mid-stream is never a great idea, whatever the breed of horse. A lot of the 'damage' by the coalition plan is theoretical and it should be allowed to proceed until proof one way or the other is established. No one was ever going to solve the recession in the short term - it's a medium to long term plan.

[El Pibe]

It's actually quite interesting to contrast the UK's problem with Spain's.

There are no austerity measures necessary there because even the socialists, who presided over the nation since the madrid bombings helped oust the PP (their tories), were surprisingly sensible when it came to spending (gov't debt sits at a circumspect 60% of GDP, compared to UK's 80%).

The problem there, mirrored here, was personal borrowing which went into the realms of the fantastical.

As the housing bubble burst and confidence withered so too did spending and now their economy is in freefall because noone is spending any money and unemployment is apocalyptic (50% in 18-24 bracket, that's Tahrir sq levels!!)

I make the comparisons because I wonder whether the cuts are rather missing the point.

Whilst reining in spending strikes me as sensible, the constant bleating about austerity is sending out a message that is sucking away confidence which brings about a self-fulfilling situation of economic shrinkage, which means jobs are lost, which shrinks confidence, which curbs spending, which...etc.

I'm not saying lets borrow heavily and splurge the cash. Perhaps tempering the language and releasing the iron grip, especially on front line services and long term social improvement programmes (god knows we need it before we lay the foundations for the next generation of riots) would be beneficial, but this sticking to a policy that may be doing more harm than good doesn't seem sensible.

Surely politics should be about pragmatism, not 'staying the course'.

[Loz]

El Pibe Wrote:

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> Whilst reining in spending strikes me as sensible, the constant bleating about austerity is sending

> out a message that is sucking away confidence which brings about a self-fulfilling situation of

> economic shrinkage, which means jobs are lost, which shrinks confidence, which curbs spending,

> which...etc.

There is a lot of truth to that, on both sides. Everyone seems to be talking the economy down, which IMHO is doing far more damage than any economic plan could do. People are more scared than they really need be and that is really taking its toll.

As I (touch wood) still have a job, I find the recession to be personally beneficial - prices are down, bargains are to be had. A good time to buy stuff. Not everyone in that sort of position is seeing it that way.

[Chippy Minton]

Prices are not down! Inflation is still, and has been for some time, way above the Bank of England's target rate.

Bargains maybe had when buying clothes, but generally the cost of living has increased greatly during the last 12 months.

[El Pibe]

Prices are much cheaper in Rwanda and Mexico Chippy, you might like to go there ;-P

(Iran not so much, those sanctions are biting)

[Loz]

Power prices are up, yes. Travel/petrol prices are up, yes. But prices for goods and services can be found at bargain prices by the smart shopper.

[Chippy Minton]

El Pibe - err...I thought you'd be the one moving considering it was you that posted the link to the article that noted these countries have more stable and managable debt, but there you go.

Loz - help me out then, electricity was up 14.1% and gas 19.8% up last year. My fuel costs also went up by 9.4% and Mrs Minton's season ticket this month has also increased by above inflation. As a smart shopper where would you recommend I find some bargains that buck these increases?

[El Pibe]

Aaah I see.

So that one table at the bottom negates the whole article, of course how stupid of me, we're not in economic trouble after all.

Of course instead of flippancy you could have, quite justifiably, questioned whether the size of the national debt should be the single most important driver of policy of this government when the US stumbles along at 99% (actually now at 101%) and Japan at 234%.

But the world is always better for an 'if you like it so much why don't you live there' call.