homeless man in wheelchair living outside harvester pub

[rendelharris]

Carofen Wrote:

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> He is a proud man and doesn't want conventional

> help, he has his reasons and we have to respect

> that. At the same time, we should still care. He

> never asks for anything. No reason to close the

> thread. Just care about people. I asked him why he

> won't accept help on the usual way, he had his

> reasons and I understand. He is resourceful and I

> think he likes the support he gets from the

> people. Let's not judge. He has a massive heart,

> he has a daughter somewhere, we asked where she

> was, he pointed to his heart. He's another human

> equal to us, he has feelings just like we do. If

> you choose to not accept his lifestyle choice

> that's ok, just don't view this thread.

Very well said.

[Penguin68]

Nevertheless, this constant reporting on his every movement and location looks a lot like (albeit benevolent) cyber stalking. Perhaps we should afford him some privacy. Numbers of people and institutions seem to have offered him help, some of which he accepts, others not. That is his right and privilege as a free man in our society. Those whose help he accepts are offering him that help. His may be an untidy life, but it seems mainly to be of his choice, and it isn't (should not be?) our job to 'tidy' him up.

[lavender27]

I pray that Podrick/Patrick is offered what he wants and so needs, he cannot possibly like living in the freezing cold.

Father in heaven, find out what this dear older gentleman wants and grant him his requests. Amen

[NewWave]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Carofen Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > He is a proud man and doesn't want conventional

> > help, he has his reasons and we have to respect

> > that. At the same time, we should still care.

> He

> > never asks for anything. No reason to close the

> > thread. Just care about people. I asked him why

> he

> > won't accept help on the usual way, he had his

> > reasons and I understand. He is resourceful and

> I

> > think he likes the support he gets from the

> > people. Let's not judge. He has a massive

> heart,

> > he has a daughter somewhere, we asked where she

> > was, he pointed to his heart. He's another

> human

> > equal to us, he has feelings just like we do.

> If

> > you choose to not accept his lifestyle choice

> > that's ok, just don't view this thread.

>

> Very well said.

Hear Hear!

[Carofen]

And I'm sure he won't have any influence on property prices in your area 😉

[sabrina79]

Some people on here mis understood my message .No suprised at all ..Was not about him about you !!! Yes I do volunteering and support 5 charities ....

By giving stuff you don t help him ...You support him to live outside and became ill ...THIS IS WHAT I SAID

Everyone choose how to live their life .So let him live his life ...

He is NOT the only homeless so why help him and don t help the other ? His shelter burned down I think for the candles and electric gas? who give that to him?

My point is .

By giving little stuff you don t help him in a permanent way .Have you seen what happened to him?

Maybe my thread it is more clear now!!

You people get too much in this poor guy life . let him live He chose to live his life alone without any help from ...so respect that instead to open a thread by talking about him ..Did he approved ?

This is what more than one people ia trying to say on here

Thank you and might An angel protect this guy

[intexasatthe moment]

I think Sabrina makes good points .

I also think that the whole issue of homelessness is so great that it's painful to think about .To me ,this thread represents a way in which individuals can feel that they are "doing something " ,helping .

But I believe that their help is missdirected ,missguided .Greater benefit could be achieved by a regular donation to one of the charities that work with homeless people .

Surely that's not hard to understand ? I guess "adopting" our own EDF homeless person creates a temporary glow and feeling that someone has been helped - I'm guilty of this when I hand over money to people in the street .For me it's a knee jerk reaction and makes me feel a bit better about myself and a little less guilty about the money I've just spent on myself in the shops .

BUT I think it's a delusion or pseudo helping behaviour as Alice has described it,the money would be better used in the hands of an organisation who work with the homeless .

[rendelharris]

Amazing how binary some people's view of the world is. Giving money or goods to a person on the street does not preclude giving money to or volunteering for a charity, and I'm sure many people on here do both (I claim no such thing for myself, beyond buying him a sandwich a few years ago I've had no interaction with this man).

With this particular individual he has made it clear that he chooses to reject institutional help, so people aren't keeping him on the street by giving him the occasional blanket or pot of food; the accusations that they're "keeping him out there" and are likely to kill him are ridiculous, he'd be out there anyway - quite possibly they've kept him alive.

All this guff about intruding into his life by having a thread on here is tiresome. It seems clear from what many have said that he welcomes the attention, and he himself agreed to have his plight publicized in London's biggest newspaper, so let's give up on the "cyberstalking" and "shoving yourself into his life" accusations, shall we?

I find it really depressing, in a world full of selfishness and greed, that when people try to do a little something for a fellow human being others leap for their high horse to tell them they're doing it the wrong way, or being patronizing, or only doing it for their own ego, yadayadayada. Maybe all those things are true, maybe not, but they're still trying to do some good. Perhaps everyone should only give money to established charities, and when someone like this guy who won't take help from them dies of pneumonia which maybe could have been avoided if someone had taken him a spare blanket or the occasional bit of hot food we can all give ourselves a pat on the back and say we did the approved thing.

If I'm ever unfortunate enough to find myself in Paddy's position I hope I receive the goodwill, kindness and concern others have shown for him, and I won't question their motives or ask them why they're not giving through properly regulated institutions, I'd just be glad of it.

[intexasatthe moment]

High horse Rendel ? It's a long way down you know .

We're all entiteled to opinions ,just because they differ doesn't make them patronising .

Has this person's position improved ? If the time ,energy and money invested in him by EDF posters had been directed at organisations working with homeless people ( who ,by the way ,offer support other than accommodation ) could more have been achieved ?

[rendelharris]

intexasatthe moment Wrote:

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> We're all entiteled to opinions ,just because they

> differ doesn't make them patronising .

"I guess "adopting" our own EDF homeless person creates a temporary glow and feeling that someone has been helped" - that's pretty patronising.

> Has this person's position improved ? If the time

> ,energy and money invested in him by EDF posters

> had been directed at organisations working with

> homeless people ( who ,by the way ,offer support

> other than accommodation ) could more have been

> achieved ?

A) Has this person's position worsensed? Maybe he'd be dead without the help he's been given, I don't know - and neither do you; B) as above, why do you assume that trying to help this guy is the only thing those who have done so do? Why does this have to be an either/or?

[intexasatthe moment]

Depends how defensive you're being Rendel and how you choose to intepret things .

Why didn't you quote the rest of the sentence beginning "I guess "adopting" our own EDF homeless person" ?

"Has this person's position worsensed? Maybe he'd be dead without the help he's been given, I don't know - and neither do you" ..well from comments on this thread it seems that his resting place has been made inaccesible ,his goods lost and that he now has fewer clothes and wet coverings as opposed to his pallett ,mattress ,sleeping bag etc

So that makes me think that his position is worse .

"why do you assume that trying to help this guy is the only thing those who have done so do? Why does this have to be an either/or?"

You're keen on slating me for a " binary " approach ,and assuming that I have decided that people are choosing to do something at the exclusion of something else . I don't know what people are doing ,I've never said that I did . I've just expressed a view that resources would be better used in the hands of an organisation . I have no idea where get this "either/or" attitude from .

[rendelharris]

intexasatthe moment Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> from comments on

> this thread it seems that his resting place has

> been made inaccesible ,his goods lost and that he

> now has fewer clothes and wet coverings as opposed

> to his pallett ,mattress ,sleeping bag etc

> So that makes me think that his position is worse

> .

What has any of that to do with the help people on here have offered? Did the owners of the Grove board up his shelter because people had been giving him blankets? Not sure of your point.

> You're keen on slating me for a " binary "

> approach ,and assuming that I have decided that

> people are choosing to do something at the

> exclusion of something else . I don't know what

> people are doing ,I've never said that I did .

> I've just expressed a view that resources would be

> better used in the hands of an organisation . I

> have no idea where get this "either/or" attitude

> from .

But the resources offered on here - it seems to me - are things like the odd spare blanket or leftover food, giving things like that to an individual is not taking away resources which could be given to an organisation. If someone, or a group, were giving him ?100 a week then I'd absolutely agree the money would be better given to Crisis etc, but they're not. You do seem to be saying it's either/or even as you deny it, saying that resources shouldn't be given to this individual but to an organisation. As noted, I'm sure many of those who've offered help also support charities.

[TE44]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15284726.Death_on_the_streets__Shock_figures_reveal_horrifying_extent_of_homeless_fatalities_in_Scotland/

I cannot find the figures for London but above is a link to homeless people dying on the streets inGlasgow, almost 4 a month, comparing size and amount of homeless I would imagine figures to be much higher.

The reality is many homeless do not get the help.

Single mothers have had the choice of having there children removed from there care if they refuse to move hundreds of miles from there family.

Is it ok to force people into situations with an ultimative if it is not the help they want or feel they need. This thread seems to be moving away from the bigger picture, yes this man has been offered help which he has refused but this is not often the case with homeless.

[TE44]

And why shouldn't people help when to be honest we have a system that cannot cope. Whose responsibility is it, I do not believe the publics help should be held responsible for whether someone lives or dies, and accusations of allowing or being part of that because you choose to help, moves the blame from a much bigger picture.

[intexasatthe moment]

"You do seem to be saying it's either/or even as you deny it,"

Rendel - repeating something doesn't make it true .

My point is that the efforts made by individuals have not been succesful .

"But the resources offered on here - it seems to me - are things like the odd spare blanket or leftover food, giving things like that to an individual is not taking away resources which could be given to an organisation." I disagree .

"As noted, I'm sure many of those who've offered help also support charities." they could well be ,I'm not sure why you're labouring this point .

I'm not sure why you're so keen on arguing with me ,all I've said is that I think more could be achieved by supporting organisations than by direct help to individuals . It's hardly inflammotory stuff .Why are you so keen to come down on me like a ton of bricks inventing stuff like "why do you assume that trying to help this guy is the only thing those who have done so do? Why does this have to be an either/or?"

[rendelharris]

intexasatthe moment Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "But the resources offered on here - it seems to

> me - are things like the odd spare blanket or

> leftover food, giving things like that to an

> individual is not taking away resources which

> could be given to an organisation." I disagree .

Why? If someone takes him the remains of their Sunday roast they're not going to parcel it up and send it to the Sallies instead, are they?

> I'm not sure why you're so keen on arguing with me

> ,all I've said is that I think more could be

> achieved by supporting organisations than by

> direct help to individuals . It's hardly

> inflammotory stuff .

Because you didn't just say that, you said:

"To me ,this thread represents a way in which individuals can feel that they are "doing something " ,helping .

But I believe that their help is missdirected ,missguided .Greater benefit could be achieved by a regular donation to one of the charities that work with homeless people .

Surely that's not hard to understand ? I guess "adopting" our own EDF homeless person creates a temporary glow and feeling that someone has been helped - I'm guilty of this when I hand over money to people in the street .For me it's a knee jerk reaction and makes me feel a bit better about myself and a little less guilty about the money I've just spent on myself in the shops .

BUT I think it's a delusion or pseudo helping behaviour as Alice has described it,the money would be better used in the hands of an organisation who work with the homeless ."

Which I regard as negative, patronizing and unwarrantedly judgemental on people whose hearts are in the right place. Incidentally I may be wrong but I haven't seen a single person on here say they've given him money, as far as I'm aware it's all been spare items etc.

I can't quite understand why you're objecting to me saying that you're being binary when your stance is that people's effort and assistance should be going to a homeless charity and not this individual. That is either/or and seems to negate the idea that people can do both.

However, we're going in circles so perhaps just agree to disagree and let others decide for themselves what they want to do to help the homeless, whether as individuals or as a whole, without judging them for it.

[alice]

Colluding with an ill person will keep them a rough sleeper and increase their chance of dying this winter.

A blanket won?t stop pneumonia. Let Streetlink do their stuff.

[rendelharris]

alice Wrote:

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> Colluding with an ill person will keep them a

> rough sleeper and increase their chance of dying

> this winter.

> A blanket won?t stop pneumonia. Let Streetlink do

> their stuff.

As already noted, Alice, this individual doesn't want institutional help. Streetlink have been alerted to his situation and I haven't noticed "their stuff" has made much of an improvement, have you? In general there is a case to be made that misplaced aid can worsen the problem, I agree, in this man's case, no.

[rendelharris]

P.S. Bowing out of this thread now and thanks for the discussion; just realised I've spent half the morning when I should be working trying to defend people for showing a bit of charity and compassion, which suddenly strikes me as rather absurd.

[intexasatthe moment]

"Which I regard as negative, patronizing and unwarrantedly judgemental on people whose hearts are in the right place."

that's your view and I think it's pretty clear not my intention . I've said that homelessness is a massive issue which I think people ( and I've included myself in this ) find it hard to think about and can attempt to deal with in a missguided fashion . I think organisations are better placed to help .That's my view - it's you who've decided that this is critical and judgemental of others .I am perfectly capable of holding that view and not disparaging others .Indeed I've explained that I take the same action .

Where have I judged people ?

"that people's effort and assistance should be going to a homeless charity and not this individual. " but I haven't said that have I ? I've said that I believe resources would be better used if directed towards an organisation .

It's a fine point and I can see it doesn't fit your need to argue and be confrontational .

And yes ,lets stop going round in circles and let people express their views without being told that they are patronising ,judgemental, negative and on their high horse for doing so .

[TE44]

Alice do you believe the people dying on our streets

Is through collusion with the public?

[intexasatthe moment]

thanks for the discussion - thanks ? discussion ?

In my book a discussion is an exchange of views ,not open season for someone who doesn't agree with those views to heap criticism and decide that you hold all sorts of judgemental thoughts.

You've enjoyed it have you Rendel ? You enjoy spending your time attacking people and accusing them of being on their high horse ,judgemental ,negative ,patronising and then trying to justify your accusations ?

I'll bear that in mind in future .

[hellosailor]

alice Wrote:

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> Colluding with an ill person will keep them a

> rough sleeper and increase their chance of dying

> this winter.

> A blanket won?t stop pneumonia. Let Streetlink do

> their stuff.

Alice, he was in a half way house for a while, he says he was placed with a heroin addict and a paranoid schizophrenic and couldn't cope with that environment where he felt less safe than on the streets.

If people find it galling that others are trying to make sure he has blankets, food etc then perhaps best to avoid this thread because I really can't see why anyone would follow it if they felt that way. As others have said, helping Paddy does not preclude helping others, volunteering or giving to charity. It depresses me that people have come on the thread to patronise and talk down to those who do care enough to help. Rather than asking admin to close the thread maybe just don't read it? Might be a less drastic solution than locking a thread about something that lots of people do care about just because you don't feel the same.

[nxjen]

I don?t think anybody?s saying that people shouldn?t give blankets and other items. This thread does make me uncomfortable though, that someone few of us know personally is being discussed in such a public way.

[hellosailor]

That's precisely what some people have said.