naps/feeding question - advice reeeally needed

[hellosailor]

Fellow forumites,

What the dickens do I do about this? I posted a while ago about the fact that my baby would only take naps on me or my partner and I was somewhat at the end of my tether as with feeding added in as well, it meant I literally never even got off the sofa to go to the bathroom!

Well, things have moved on a bit at least - she is 12 weeks old and she now does night time sleep in a crib next to our bed rather than co-sleeping which is great as has removed my anxieties about rolling but daytime naps are tricky...

I've been putting her down in the crib while drowsy but awake (ambitious!) for naps and doing a version of shush patting to get her off to sleep, which can take 15 mins of grizzling, and then repeating this every time she wakes and grizzles/cries, sitting by the crib for the duration of the nap and trying to soothe her in the crib each time she wakes and only picking her up if the crying escalates from grizzling to a proper cry and then when she stops popping her back down, and repeating process till she drops off etc. Yesterday and this morning we were up there for 2 hour stretches, during which time she did about a 40 min nap and a second 5 or 10 minute stint after the first soothing, but couldn't be soothed on the 3rd or 4th wake up so I called that the end of the nap.

The thing is, if I did as I have been doing and let her sleep on me for every nap, she sleeps deeply and for long periods, and she is a baby who can only really be awake for 75 mins at a time and ideally seems to want up to 6 hours worth of naps a day, so I'm finding in the last few days that by following the advice I've been giving on getting her to sleep in a crib means that she is not sleeping anywhere near enough as she tends to only do one sleep cycle if I'm lucky and we spend most of her nap time shush patting and doing this 'nap exercise' rather than her actually having a proper snooze, so she is so tired that feeding her is difficult as she always falls asleep within a minute or two of a feed as she is so tired all the time!

I've been trying to ensure that she gets a better nap later in the day by having a nap in the buggy or sling as I know she will sleep properly, but this doesn't seem to compensate for the sleep she's still losing while I do this crib stuff to try to get her to go down for naps, plus I wonder if the inconsistency of doing this crib nap 'exercise' for some naps and not for others is undermining what I'm doing with the crib naps anyway??

I really want to continue taking steps to get her to go down for naps but not at the expense of her being exhausted by lack of the long naps she used to have on me..any ideas gratefully received!

[Fuschia]

Sounds like as she comes into light sleep at the end of one sleep cycle (45m-1h) she is tending to wake unless she is soothed back off by the movement of the sling/buggy or closeness to you.

Some good ideas here:

http://www.pantley.com/elizabeth/advice/007159695X.php?nid=559

http://www.pantley.com/elizabeth/books/007159695X.php?nid=568&isbn=007159695X

[BB100]

I used to have a baby like this and I never managed to solve the problem - sorry. What I did discover is my baby would continue to doze when lying on me because there was no reason for him to wake up as he knew I was there and felt secure. On reflection I wished I did the dummy thing if only to have some sanity or maybe I should have just stayed on the sofa and done an Open University course!

Have you tried swaddling when you put her down? Or maybe go out more so she has a reason to wake up and look around and be properly tired. I hope the info is of some help.

[Moos]

Perhaps try combining methods? Stick to trying to get her used to sleeping at home for one nap/day - either the first one of the day, which I have found to be the easiest one where the babies are tiredest (weirdly) and most suggestible, or the key middle-of-the-day one, which will be the one that hangs around for years.

I wouldn't give up, unless you want to be like me and doing nap training at 6 months, but don't kill yourself putting her down in the cot all day.

Best of luck!

[hellosailor]

thanks fuschia, I've recently read the no-cry nap solution, lots of interesting stuff from E Pantley

BB100, sadly she also won't take a dummy or be swaddled but thanks for suggestions!

Moos, yes, think i will do nap training for one nap a day as can only imagine how exhausted she'll get if I do it every nap...ooh-er....

[Moos]

You didn't say how long you've been doing it for, but I was told it will take 2 or more likely 3 weeks of consistent putting the baby down at the same time every day, and eventually they get used to it. We'll see!! :) We're not there yet either..

[snowboarder]

We are in a similar pickle - stupidly enough for the second time - which is annoying - but I have no clue how you can spend time trying to settle a young baby when you have a 2 yr old who has both a busy social schedule and who bundles around the house making too much noise when you try to get baby to sleep. Or he hangs off my leg. Sorry know this is not useful...just as comment...

I seriously have no idea how you 'settle' a young baby other than feed/rock or push to sleep. Mine is never 'drowsy' - he's either asleep or awake and angry.

[littleEDfamily]

So she's sleeping in the bednest at night!? What a result! (I've failed with daytime naps with our second).

[hellosailor]

littleEDfamily you are praised for your loan of the bednest about a thousand times a day round our house!

Moos, have only been doing it a few days and I imagine it would take weeks rather than days as you say :'( - are you doing a similar thing, trying to soothe in cot and picking up, putting down, repeat to fade?

Snowboarder - 'Mine is never 'drowsy' - he's either asleep or awake and angry' = just made me laugh aloud, which is quite something seeing as I'm sitting in a room with blackout blinds drawn trying to work out why she suddenly won't go to sleep tonight! plus I agree, everyone says you mustn't mustn't mustn't feed or rock to sleep but am struggling to find an alternative!! Surely most babies won't happily go down in a cot while awake and slip peacefully into a relaxed sleep...

[supergolden88]

I think changing the venue and method of naps is confusing for your baby. Like Moos said you need to be consistent and do it at certain times - you are almost programming the baby's body clock. If you also follow a bit of a ritual - say rocking or singing before you put her down you give more cues to the baby. I would be careful of doing something that the baby will depend on for napping though (like putting her on your chest) because that's what they will be looking for in order to fall asleep.

Naps are very difficult to master - some babies are better than others and need them more. Your baby will change as she grows older and be more alert etc.

I am also thinking sleeping for 6 hours in the day sounds like a lot?? I could be wrong.

[Fuschia]

Oh no, lie all cozy and warm and feed them till they drift off. Absolutely the greatest pleasure of a new baby! Introduce a muslin to snuggle and play some sleepytime music and those cues are then sorted for when you want to get them doing it with less help.. but just ENJOY the first 6-8 months.

[Moos]

Our sleep clinic lady (Millpond) recommended using a method called gradual retreat to get a baby to learn to settle without the dreaded leaving to cry. It works in stages over a minimum of 33 nights, and it got my little bean who only ever went to sleep on the breast or bottle or dummy to learn to settle himself. Each stage is a minimum of 3 nights, or more if you need - I think they say no more than 5, but not sure as we stuck to 3. Each time once the baby is in deep sleep you wait for 10 minutes to be sure he's settled, and you do it each time he wakes in the night.

Stage 1 - rock awake baby to deep sleep in your arms then put in bed

Stage 2 - sit with baby in your arms but not rocking, till deeply asleep then put him in bed

Stage 3 - put awake baby in bed, and cuddle with arms around until he is deeply asleep (v. uncomfortable, btw!)

Stage 4 - stroke baby until asleep

Stage 5 - gently pat baby until asleep

Stage 6 - hold baby's hand or foot until asleep

Stage 7 - sit next to baby till asleep

Stages 8-11 basically gradually sitting further away until you're out of sight.

Anyway, long-winded response to sb's comment - now if I'm trying to settle Twosling for his naps I'll start with putting him down with a kiss and a cuddle and then immediately leave the room. Sometimes he settles, sometimes he cries. If he cries, I go back in and depending on how upset he is either cuddle him in bed with my cheek on his till he calms down, or gently stroke his head with my other hand on his tummy, and as he settles gradually withdraw my touch. So it's like a sort of mini-reprisal of the stages.

It works sometimes. And sometimes he's having none of it, and yells his head off until I give up and get him up, and we just tick off another day and start again in the morning.

Don't know if that's useful at all! Haven't cracked naps yet. But working on it..

[hellosailor]

Thanks so much for sharing that millpond stuff in such detail Moos, very very useful, though I imagine that may be for slightly older babies than my 12 week baby if you're using it with a 6 month old? I know their experts tailor the method very precisely according to age? Sounds like 33 nights well spent tho!

[Moos]

True, I don't know whether they'd recommend it for such a little one. We started when Twosling was just under 5 months.

I do think compromise is the answer if routine is what you're after. (If not, just go with the flow.) But at the moment if I've had a frazzly day and Twosling hasn't settled well for a nap I might sling him or buggy him for the next. And though we don't co-sleep / feed to sleep any more, if he wakes early in the morning (say around 6), I'll bring him into our bed to have a feed and a snooze and remind myself how lovely it is to sleep with his little head under my arm. I like the idea that you don't have to solemnly follow one approach alone.

[supergolden88]

Yes 12 weeks is perhaps too early to establish a routine but you can lay the groundwork for it. And while I agree having a warm baby asleep in your arms is the loveliest thing (my daughter used to fall asleep on me all the time while my son never does unless he is ill) you don't want to end up in a situation where you are motionless for hours daily because baby is sleeping on you.

The Millpond methods is very gentle and gradual - I bet it would work for you. But waiting it out will also work as baby will change a lot in coming weeks and nap less anyway.

[alieh]

Personally, at this age I agree with the strategy of aiming for one good nap in the cot - whichever one is the easiest one to get her down for. Then the rest I would just do whatever works best for you - sling or buggy if you want to be out and about, etc. They nap so often in these early months that it will do your head in if you're sitting shushing in a dark room 5-6 times per day!

Once they drop down to more like 2 naps per day, you could have a renewed go at implementing all of the good nap routine ideas. I think with my first son we started from about 4 months or so getting that first nap morning in the cot - did the whole routine, similar to bedtime routine. This worked well because I could shower and get organised at home during this time. Then the rest of the day I wanted to be out, so he would sleep in the sling or buggy.

Around 10 months or so I needed to start cutting down that morning nap to get a longer nap after lunch, so switched to doing the morning nap in the buggy and longer nap in the cot. The buggy nap got shorter and shorter until we were left with just the nap after lunch sometime around 18 months. That is still pretty much his routine now at 2.5.

There are also advantages to having a baby that will nap in a sling/buggy as otherwise you will end up tied to the house for ages because there won't be time to get out and home in between naps.

I think good napping is a skill that is very gradually learned for most babies. I struggled with my son's naps until he was 11 months or so, when it suddenly clicked and he became an amazing napper.

[Moos]

Very good advice from alieh (hee hee, my phone keeps trying to change your name to 'alien'). The magic 4 month mark when they change so much anyway is a good time to gently start implementing routine. But feeling trapped in the house because you have to put bubs down for a million naps is No Fun. When Twosling was super-tiny I spent almost all my time out and about, partly because we had builders in the house and partly because it was great to be free to do what I liked. Not so easy these days.

[KateW]

I spent the first 4 months of my daughter's life feeling hugely guilty for cuddling and rocking her to sleep for naps (guilty because everything I read seem to suggest this would instill bad habits). I would curl up with her at nap times (9am, 12pm and 4pm) and made sure she got the naps she needed or take her out in the pram as she'd sleep in there. I would often sleep the 2 hours at lunchtime with her snuggled on me and it was lovely. Then at about 4 and a half months I started to try and put her in her cot for naps using shush/pat then pick up/put down when she was a bit older. It worked partially in that she would sleep in her cot but never for longer than half and hour, at which point I'd cuddle her back to sleep. I did controlled crying at 6 months and it worked a treat (with only one day of bad crying - 50 mins on and off - after that it was 10 mins, then 7 then just a few whimpers). I'm very consistent with the wind down time: low lights and cuddles for 5 mins then sleeping bag on (at which point she usually cries) then I walk round with her snuggled into my shoulder whispering 'It's just sleepy time' until she goes quiet, then I lay her awake in her cot and leave the room; she's usually asleep within a few mins. She now naps brilliantly in her cot and I've realised that she probably just needed those cuddles in the first few months and it has had no impact on her ability to nap by herself. I wish to god I hadn't wasted so much energy feeling bad about cuddling and rocking her to sleep; I agree with Fuschia and when I have another one I'll relish those snuggly cuddles.

[hellosailor]

Thanks for the advice everyone, lots of helpful stuff that makes sense and a relief to know that rocking to sleep sometimes etc isn't necessarily a cardinal sin..Kate W what you say resonates a lot!

Also glad to hear that having probs with napping independently now doesn't necessarily mean that naps won't get better as she gets a bit older..and even a few days of trying to get her to go down in the cot makes me realise how much I'd miss the cuddles if she did! But would still be good to have her settling as an option so will persevere with one nap a day being in the crib for the time being, and then cut us both some slack and have the longer afternoon nap in the buggy or sling so we don't spend the whole day shush patting in the dark which is knackering for us both!

[BB100]

hellosailor Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> > BB100, sadly she also won't take a dummy or be

> swaddled but thanks for suggestions!

>

My baby wouldn't take the dummy or be swaddled either but it was worth a try.