Controlled crying for naps

[KateW]

Has anyone any experience of using controlled crying for naps? My six month old daughter sleeps brilliantly at night (bed at 7pm, sleeps through til 5am ish, quick feed then sleeps til I wake her at 7am) but naps have always been a bit hit and miss. She'll nap in her pram for her morning nap but with her lunchtime nap, she needs a bit more help getting to sleep, then she'll sleep for 35 mins, wake, then I cuddle her and resettle her for the remainder of the nap (usually an hour-hour and a half). She cries if I leave her to go to sleep by herself although sometimes she chats then winges then sleeps. Advice greatly welcomed. Thanks!

[supergolden88]

Hi Kate

I recently had a night nanny come to help us with my 6 month old son. He tended to sometimes do well/sometimes wake up a lot in the night but in the daytime he always napped for exactly 35 minutes in his cot. He tended to do 3 naps a day (on a good day!) but that was not enough sleep for him and he was cranky a lot of the time. If he was in the pushchair and moving he would nap longer - sometimes 1-2 hours.

As your daughter sleeps well at night then you only need to tackle the daytime naps. Create a log of her nap times if you can - observe when she falls asleep/gets tired then you can build a routine around it. Babies around 6 months need between 2-4 hours of nap time obviously this depends a lot on the baby as well. Once you know the timing take your daughter to her room about 5/10minutes before nap time. Sing songs or read books or do something quiet together and talk about how it is time for her to nap. Put her down awake if possible. If she chats or whinges leave her to it. If she cries and the crying gets progressively louder go in after 5 minutes to shh her for 1 minute then leave. Do not try to get her to fall asleep just reassure her. Go in again after 10 minutes and again after 15 only if she is upset of course. If these times seem too long to you start going in after 3 minutes then 6, 9 etc (Don't do this for longer than 45 mins). If she wakes after 35m start this whole process again. I find there's no point doing this in the morning just for the longer nap at lunchtime. Give lots of cuddles and praise when she is up even if she woke up early and you had to do CC.

Your daughter sounds like she should be napping around 2 hours at lunchtime but wakes up when she enters the light sleep phase after 35 minutes. As she is a good sleeper at night I think you will be able to tackle this quickly and without too much upset. The key is to be consistent.

Another method from the No Cry Sleep Solution book is to go up to the room a few minutes BEFORE the baby starts waking up. The minute you hear them making wakeful sounds go in and pat or shh (or even pick them up and rock them or whatever else works) till they go back to sleep. The theory is that after 10 days or so of doing this the baby will learn to not wake up during the light sleep phase. You have been doing this anyway with some success. I found this method did not work for me - only managed to get my son to fall back asleep and stay asleep for remainder of the nap once.

good luck hope this is helpful!

[KateW]

Hi Supergolden,

This is really really helpful, thanks so much. Can I check a couple of things with you? You mention not to do the CC for longer than 45 mins, but what if she isn't asleep by then? Do I pick her up and comfort her to sleep? Or will this defeat the purpose? The reason I ask is that I started the CC today (gulp) and she cried on and off for an hour before she fell asleep (and then slept for 45 mins before waking). You're right in that she needs 2 hours at lunchtime; when I normally cuddle her when she wakes after 35 mins, she falls straight asleep in my arms and will sleep for the rest of the 2 hour nap (some days, if I'm knackered, I'll curl up with her in bed for the rest of the nap and she sleeps just fine. Oh I love those days!). Like you, I figured there wasn't much point doing this for the morning nap and I'm hoping that the skills she'll learn for the lunchtime nap will help her morning nap. She dropped her late p.m. nap a few weeks ago and only needs it now if she's had a rubbish lunchtime nap.

(BTW, my neighbour called round 55 mins in to CC today and I burst into tears on her on the doorstep! I thought I was so strong and could handle my little girl crying but it's hard; I know I need to be consistent so I'll really bear in mind what you said. Thanks again).

[supergolden88]

I think I meant don't do it for longer than 45 minutes after the first wake up 35mins into the nap. If at around 45 minutes you think she is about to fall asleep then dont pick her up. You probably need to stick to your guns until they fall asleep. Take heart things will get better. I know how incredibly difficult it is to hear them cry and doing CC in the daytime is ten times as hard as during the night. But it tends to be effective quickly if done right. Stick to the times you choose *this is very important* and make sure that feeds are not too near nap time.

If she cries a long time and misses her nap pick her up give praise but dont put her down again until it is time for her next nap. This of course is very difficult but my son managed to only nap 45 minutes the entire first day we did CC. The sleep expert was with us otherwise I would have caved I think. But I was dealing with two separate issues 1. have baby go to bed awake and fall asleep on his own 2. have him sleep longer than 35 minutes.

Nap times for us are 9am/noon/4pm with a 15 minute window either side of those times. I have to say that he now sleeps longer for the first nap but his other two are still hit and miss. I need to go back to the nap training. At least he usually falls asleep without crying sometimes he chats for a while and others he whinges a bit before falling asleep. But we are still both learning about how to deal with naps and sleeping in general. Some times it's easy others not so much. Understanding his little habits and reasons behind waking helps the process. I also found a sleep toy (something safe - I have a Cuski) seems to help him.

[mrs f]

Super golden, what you say about babies entering the light phase of sleep after 35 mins is really interesting, does this apply to babies of all ages? As my 3 week old often wakes after about this amount of time napping & I know he needs lots longer, thanks!

[supergolden88]

I do think light sleep phases apply to newborns as well but at this age they haven't really developed real patterns to their sleeping they just sleep when they need to over 24h.

You can try to follow a nap/feed routine some babies really respond to that but others don't - better observe your baby and try to figure out what personality they have. My son slept great as a newborn and exclusively breastfed he only started having issues later after a couple of bouts of colds/nappy rash/feeding problems.

This book is really interesting - gentle approach

No Cry Sleep Solution

as well as this one - applies to babies and older children and wide range of issues

Solve your child's sleep problem

[Fuschia]

Newborns fall directly into deep sleep while older babies go through a light phase before entering rem

[Pickle]

My daughter was exactly like this - would fall asleep for about 35/40 mins at lunchtime then wake. I initially got myself quite stressed about it (for me it was important that she slept, as my older child napped after lunch and with such a small age gap I really needed the break!).

For a while I tried comforting her and settling her back in the cot but it didn't work, so for a few weeks I got her up when she woke, put her straight into a sling (I had a Hugabub) and continued on with what I was doing. She would always fall asleep again, and I started to quite enjoy the extra cuddles.

After a few weeks she naturally started sleeping longer in the cot before waking, and eventually she got into a routine of regularly sleeping for the 2 hour stretch.

Good luck.

P x

[jennyh]

My 10 week old needs settling to sleep each daytime nap, she always seems to have the light/disturbed sleep force good 15 mins before a deep sleep kicks in. I guess I should start to think about trying to get her into the habit of going to sleep in her own but it seems like such hard work when I'm so tired!!!

[Saffron]

JennyH, every mother-baby dyad is different. A routine with independent sleeping is good for some, and difficult for others. If you're tired, sometimes just going with the flow is easier. Ten weeks old is still very new. Helping Baby to settle to sleep is totally fine. If like the OP you find in a few months, that you'd like to try a little more of a routine, there are lots of good resources available (this Forum included!) for easing Baby into different sleep patterns.

Little Saff has been a rubbish sleeper, but brilliant at everything else. I guess it's swings and round-abouts with babies, as with so many things in life. At 15 mo, we've just transitioned from needing to b/f to sleep, to being able to nod off in the buggy. Progress at a snail's pace!! KateW, I envy your LO's sleeping through-- Good luck cracking the nap dilemma. :)

[jollybaby]

Kate if it's any consolation - from chats with my nct group none of our babies sleep for 2 hours after lunch( our babies are 7 months). Miss jb sleeps for about an hour- she used to do 40 mins. I'm hoping this will gradually lengthen with time.

[KateW]

Thank you all so much for your very reassuring comments. CC is really tough and it helps to have words of encouragement when I'm at caving in point! Just thought I'd update you all on Day 2 of CC - thankfully a huge success compared to yesterday! Supergolden, I did exactly what you suggested: took her to her room just as she started showing her tired signs, talked and cuddled quietly for 5 minutes, laid her in her cot (she wasn't crying at this point) and left the room. She talked and whinged for a few minutes then started crying. After 10 mins, I went in and sat by her cot, talking soothingly to her for a minute. She stopped crying after a few seconds and just watched me. I then left the room and by the time I had got to the monitor, she was asleep! She slept for 35 mins then woke, cried on and off for 7 minutes then went back to sleep for another hour and 10 minutes! I can't believe it! I know it's only day 2 but it does give me hope that she can do it by herself, with minimal intervention from me. She is currently chatting away in her cot playing with a toy. Many thanks again all.

[supergolden88]

well done!

My boy went to sleep with no crying at all today. Woke after 35mins cried a little then stopped. When he started up again went to give him a kiss and was preparing for an afternoon of CC but he did another hour and a half! Two hour nap. I am sure it is the exception and not the rule but still!

[emza78]

Hi ladies,

I was wondering if anyone had any advice with regards to naps for my 5 month old. She tends to go to bed at 6pm and sleep though till 6am, she's then up for an hour but gets grouchy v quickly so I put her down around 7 and she has her 2 hour nap then. The rest of the day is then completely all over the place, she tends to have a couple of 40 minute naps or sometimes more but they all vary in time. Perhaps I should try and keep her up in the morning or wake her up early from her 2 hour morning nap? Though it really goes against the grain to wake a sleeping baby.. The rest of the naps are always a complete nightmare incidentally and get progressively harder - by the afternoon I usually resort to taking her out in the pram, not that that's really such a chore! Is 5 months too young to try CC?

[KateW]

Hi Emza78,

These are just my thoughts, but if I were you, I'd try and push her bedtime back a bit til 7pm (you could move it 15 minutes each night) so she wakes nearer to 7am. At 5 months, she should be able to go for 2 hours from waking, which would put her first nap nearer to 9am. I know you say it goes against the grain to wake a sleeping baby, but it really helped me to establish a good routine with my daughter. I would just allow her a short nap at 9am (30-40 mins) then aim for her big nap around 12pm/12.15pm. That way, you'll be able to establish lunchtime (when she's on solids) around 11.00 and she won't be too tired to have a good feed. She'd then have her big nap and might only need a cat nap later in the afternoon (but no later than 5pm if she's to go to bed at 7pm). My daughter has dropped this late pm nap which they do around this time (assuming a nap schedule as above). My little girl has the same nap times as Supergolden mentions and it really works for us. She is a happy and content little thing nearly all of the time, which has made CC hard as I'm not used to hearing her cry! The guidance I've read says not to do CC before 6 months but I've had friends who've done it slightly earlier to help with the nighttime sleeps. Hope that helps!

[supergolden88]

Emza - it seems to me like she needs to sleep longer in the morning - the first nap sounds like it should be part of her nightime sleep. The Ferber book I mentioned in the thread (see posts further up) talks about this. You could try pushing her bedtime to 7pm (progressively say 10/15m at a time) so that she sleeps 7pm -7am.

A dream feed could be useful at around 10.30 or 11 pm to push her to sleep slightly longer in the morning but if you haven't been doing it I am not sure it is wise to introduce it now. You could try it once and see if it makes a difference? You pick up the (sleeping) baby and give her a bottle or breastfeed and put them back down.

If she wakes around 7am try to put her down around 8.30 or 9am for first nap hopefully she will sleep a little less (around 45m to an hour is good) and then do a longer nap at around noon and probably another shorter one around 4.

Since she sleeps through the night which great at 5 months she probably needs a more structured routine in the day - going for naps at the same time so her body clock is not so confused.

[emza78]

That's great thanks - we did try a couple of weeks of dreamfeeding a few months ago but it just seemed to confuse her more than anything else so a little wary of that. I think we'll try pushing her bedtime back to 7 - it's just a bit hard as by 6 o'clock she's REALLY grouchy - tiredness and hunger all seems to come to a head, hopefully once she's in a bit more of a routine this should get better though. I'll keep you posted!

[Moos]

I've just had interesting advice from Millpond with regard to getting the crucial and long-lasting lunchtime nap to extend beyond 30-40 minutes, ie one sleep cycle. She suggested trying to put bubs down as near as possible to the same time every day (within half an hour or so), and then if he wakes after one sleep cycle and won't resettle with gentle persuasion, I should get him up but then try to resettle him 40 minutes later for another sleep cycle (or not more than an hour - as if!). She said it could take 2 or 3 weeks of doing it every day, every day, but will eventually help him to get used to sleeping longer at lunchtime. And no leaving to cry - yay.

I guess I'll report back in 3 weeks! The other thing I thought I'd try is picking him up just as he wakes and immediately take him for a walk, in the hope that he'll sleep. Sort of an adaptation of Pickle's method.

[Fuschia]

Moos Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I've just had interesting advice from Millpond

> with regard to getting the crucial and

> long-lasting lunchtime nap to extend beyond 30-40

> minutes, ie one sleep cycle. She suggested trying

> to put bubs down as near as possible to the same

> time every day (within half an hour or so), and

> then if he wakes after one sleep cycle and won't

> resettle with gentle persuasion, I should get him

> up but then try to resettle him 40 minutes later

> for another sleep cycle (or not more than an hour

> - as if!). She said it could take 2 or 3 weeks of

> doing it every day, every day, but will eventually

> help him to get used to sleeping longer at

> lunchtime. And no leaving to cry - yay.

>

> I guess I'll report back in 3 weeks! The other

> thing I thought I'd try is picking him up just as

> he wakes and immediately take him for a walk, in

> the hope that he'll sleep. Sort of an adaptation

> of Pickle's method.

Sounds like good advice, similar to E Pantley

http://www.pantley.com/elizabeth/books/007159695X.php?nid=568&isbn=007159695X

[emza78]

Hiya,

Thought I'd give a (hopefully not too longwinded) update. So a couple of nights ago I put LO to bed at 615, she slept till 5, had a quick bottle then back to sleep again till 7. That day she had a nap around 9 for 45 minutes, then I put her down at midday and she had 2.5 hours (thank you white noise!) We then went out and she had an accidental nap at 5pm in the pram for half an hour as that was the time I was coming home. She went to bed at 7pm last night and had the worst night in a long time! Woke at midnight for a feed, then 3am - I left her for 10 mins but she wasn't settling herself so gave another half bottle which did settle her but I could still hear her awake till about 430ish! Then woke again at 645 this morning - aaaah! Is it because of the 5pm nap do you think? I'll persevere for a few more days and see what happens, so tempting to just go back to the tried and tested routine though!

[KateW]

It might have something to do with the late nap or total nap time. Babies of your daughter's age need no more than 3 hours sleep if they're to go 11-12 hours at night. If you're aiming to put her down at 7pm then she shouldn't sleep past 5pm so she has 2 hours awake time before bed. At 5 months my little girl was almost ready to drop the late pm nap and sometimes would have just a quick doze at say 4.45pm but I always made she I woke her at 5pm. I'd try and reduce your daughter's lunchtime nap to 2 and quarter hours max, then just allow her 15-20 mins before 5pm. OR, it might just have been a bad night! We had a rubbish night about a week ago but it was a one off and has been fine since. Good luck.

[emza78]

Yes I was wondering if I should have woken her from the lunchtime nap but was so amazed that it was actually happening! Will see how it goes tonight, I also thought it may have just been a bad night or the start of signals to start weaning, sleep regression etc. I'm hoping for 2 hours this lunchtime so I can grab some Z's too but bet I've jinxed it now!

[supergolden88]

I do think she slept too long in the day. And I would not give feeds in the night if baby was sleeping through before. If you are using CC in the day then you have to do it at night as well. It is dreadful but if you follow a method you have to stick to it. Did she not have much milk in the day?

My son keeps chatting to himself sometimes for a long time around 3am. He usually doesn't cry anymore unless something is bothering him (eczema recently). Not sure what keeps him awake perhaps it is a naturally wakeful period in the night. I think I read somewhere that we enter our deepest sleep early in the night then have a wakeful period in the middle of the night and again deeper sleep towards the morning. Although morning tends to be 6am for babies. Just when I really am finally sleeping.

[emza78]

I'm not using CC on her at the mo - think she's still a bit young. Also suspect she's building up to needing weaning so may be waking up hungry due to that - I'll go with the flow for now, see what tonight brings!

[KateW]

One final update on the nap situation: CC has been a HUGE success for cracking my daughter's napping. For the last 4 days she has gone in her cot awake, has barely whimpered and has been asleep by the time I've reached the monitor and turned it on! She has slept through her sleep cycles (so no more waking after the 35 minute mark) and has resettled herself with no tears, barely a peep. She has slept for nearly two hours each day since Wednesday. I honestly can't believe how quickly this happened and how much calmer she is now going down for her naps. I usually take her out for a walk for her 9.15am nap but the weather has been against us the past two days so I put her in her cot instead and I had to wake her both days. Hope this is encouraging for those pondering CC. Thanks again Forumites for the advice and support.