God I hate the Guardian

[????]

why do the 'bleedin hearts' claim sole credit for the erosion of prejudice sooo much....probably their own prejudice about the white working class say?

I can tell you where racial mixing, relationships, marriage, friendships were first forged in any meanuingful numbers in the UK and it wasn't in Hampstead/Bath/Hove/Cannonbury, the right end of Notting Hill..nope. Mixed race kids aren't predominant in the ABC1 socio-economic groups for example.

Actually, young people and indeed people as a whole are anectdotally (and data wise too- if you believe surveys) immensley less prejudiced than before..about race/sexuality etc. I really don't see much evidence that this is changing and suggest that liberal paranoia about UKIP is driving your concern - they are an outlet for some people with unplaeasant views for sure but the main reasons for their popularity are much more about political disengagement (which some of is the fault of the political establishment/media and the EU) not as some 'respectable' NF/BNP outlet.

I suspect that the UK will be more tolerant in another 5 years than it is now and this will continue. You (like hugenot used too) seem to really roll up mistrust of the EU with prejudice by default??

Distrust of the EU is also completley understandable, growing accross europe, and not a pointer to little englander hatred of the foreigner cliches that liberals seem to heap on anyone who questions how effective it is.

I still think we should be in on balance ( if it get's reformed) but i'm not that far off being indifferent. still wouldn't vote UKIP though for sound economic reasons!

[El Pibe]

It wasn't eu per se, it's the ugly dialogue that seems to be more prevalent than ever before.

And whilst it's often the older mob who do it you see a lot of it from less polisisiced (geddit) types of all ages.

UKIP has become a rallying point for everything people don't like about their country which seems to be, from what I've read on all sorts of fora, gays, foreigners, bludgers, liberals and climate change (bizarrely enough) and it's genuinely ugly.

That's not to say you don't get PC fanatics on the other side, and we all know what political dogma can wreak, but I don't think we see that anywhere except the fringes. This emboldened hatred of 'them' however is worryingly prevalent, but does seem to be very much a part of a feeling of being politically disenfranchised, so I kind of get it on many level.

Problem being that the apathetic have garnered just enough effort for a protest vote, but they won't shape the direction should they ever achieve power, it'll the vocal, and we've seen far too many among their ranks whole they're a small party, so heaven help etc.

But you're right, maybe it's just a response to bad times and generational, I wish I could be so confident. Maybe it's also a tiny vocal minority, I hope so.

You know I'm a fan of eu as a supranational forum for agreement, as a concept it's great, and whilst it's prone to the abuses and failings of power and bureaucracy, I think it's remarkable how well it does function and adapt. I don't twist arguments to make it whiter than white, but I strongly believe we're miles better off as a part of it than not. I think you know I'm very much a realist rather than an idealist on that count though.

Aha anyway the point I was making was really not meant to be about racism at all, and certainly nowt to do with the EU, it's about the sense that somehow we have a utopia sometime way back when where Brits knew who and where they were and that this place is something to aim for, but that homogeneity also came with deep social conservatism that has some pretty horrific ways of manifesting itself.

It's these 'traditional values' which really seem to be the desire of this urge, and it's this that I think will be much missed. You're right that society has become more open and tolerant, but it's not some natural thing, it takes effort and campaigning and legislation.

And if legislation moves in the other direction it will move society in that direction. UKIP want to get rid of gay marriage, not such a leap to be like their admired Putin and ban 'propaganda' then public acknowledgement and finally private behaviour.

It's not like enlightenment is an inevitability is it. Especially when many people deem it abominable, the undesirable policies forced on us by those awful bleeding hearts...

[El Pibe]

and on the subject of racism, like nazi and fascist its a hideously over and misused word.

Most of the accusations are probably better expressed as xenophobia, distatste and/or distrust or fear of the other rather than thinking one's inately better. A cultural thing, nothing to do with colour. It's driven by behaviour and language.

I guess why the young often get villified more thaqn anyone else!!

[uncleglen]

Some young religious people are extremely prejudiced when it comes to sexuality- they are vehement in their condemnation and ironically most of them I have encountered spouting hatred of this kind have been black!

[BrandNewGuy]

From popbitch:

"Some things in life are beyond parody. The Guardian, for example. At a drinks party to celebrate their Sustainable Business Awards they served guests espresso martinis. But they weren't made with Vladivar or Smirnoff or any socially dubious Russian vodka.

No. The drinks were made with FAIR vodka: "The world's first vodka made from Fairtrade quinoa".

FYI: A big winner at their awards? The CEO of Unilever.

FYI2: Unilever signed a "seven-figure" partnership with Guardian News & Media to do "branded content" centred on

sustainable living.""

[????]

Denis MacShane, the former Labour MP for Rotherham, has admitted that as a ?Guardian reading liberal leftie? he shied away from the issue of the oppression of women in the Muslim community

[david_carnell]

The police also turned a blind eye. You know, that renowned liberal leftie organisation, the police.

[Otta]

Who can genuinely say they haven't shied away from it?

[El Pibe]

I don't think taking vulnerable girls into abusive prostitution has anything to do with cultural oppression of women does it, its hideous criminality pure and simple, made possible because the poor are marginalised and oppressed (see asbos and how to criminalise poor people without them breaking any laws)?

MacShane's just being an idiot and the police just didn't care.

And by the sounds of things the Council were all about juking the stats (is that how its spelt?).

And judging by the widespread abuse and oppression of women across the whole fabric of society he might want to start with the British community as a whole.

Besides. I'm not sure how you're supposed to legislate agasint cultural patriarchy, legally mulsim women obviosuly have all the rights any other women do here.

[El Pibe]

> Who can genuinely say they haven't shied away from it?

I'm not entirely sure what I'm supposed to be doing about it. Cultural change is slow and you can see that 3rd or 4th generation immigrants (should you even be labbelled so after that amount of time) behave very differently from first generation.

Mind you there are plenty of conservative (small c) brits outside the mulsim 'community' who probably see eye to eye on many cultural matters, especially keeping women in their place and regards 'morality'.

As far as I can see kippers are basically voting for a return to the world before 1956.

[david_carnell]

C'mon Piers. Don't let reason and well-argued logic get in the way of Quids making cheap political points.

[Otta]

El Pibe Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> > Who can genuinely say they haven't shied away

> from it?

>

> I'm not entirely sure what I'm supposed to be

> doing about it.

Er, I was talking about people in positions to do something about it (i.e. not you).

No political party has reallt tackled it because they'll be scared of being accused of nasty things.

[Otta]

El Pibe Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Besides. I'm not sure how you're supposed to

> legislate agasint cultural patriarchy, legally

> mulsim women obviosuly have all the rights any

> other women do here.

I think you're right, but legislation isn't the only way to change things surely.

[El Pibe]

The French clearly think so.

Other than that, what can you do, say 'stop behaving like we did for the last 3000 years until about 50 years ago, we are enlightened and you're not...join us....join usssssss....

But we could probably do more funding into charities, and ngos that help women who, in order to behave like the rest of us (not THEM), are often forced to break with their communities, sometimes due to a real threat of violence, even death.

Truly awful, but again, apart from criminal sanctions, which all exist, how do you force someone to stop being an arse.

As i said, really the only way is that over time people tend to adjust to the culture in which they are, it's been ever thus, except perhaps the saxons, they did a pretty good job of changing the predominant culture of the vast majority, but they're the exception....well the arabs, they did that very effectively too, but I'm wandering off piste now.

Actually it cut both ways with the arabs, they assimilated the culture as much as they changed it, persian muslim architecture and practices were very different to al-andalus, so it was a sort of bi-directional osmosis....ok ill shut up....

[vgrant]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Denis MacShane, the former Labour MP for

> Rotherham, has admitted that as a ?Guardian

> reading liberal leftie? he shied away from the

> issue of the oppression of women in the Muslim

> community

I fecking hate that term. I really do. but...

"Muslim community" in Rotherham isnt in any representaive of Muslims - it is however representive of a couple of shithole poverty ridden lawless 'burghs in northern pakistan where the people involved have their roots innit. Its like using loveable charming smackhead scousers as the template for "English community"

[Jeremy]

Is it OK to accept oppression of women and girls amongst first generation immigrants, just because their kids will probably know better? I don't think so.

What can be done? Maybe eliminating faith schools to encourage an integrated society. Banning veils in schools.

The first prosecutions for FGM were this year. 2014. Not good enough.

[MrBen]

Nice catch quidsy. They've all taken your boilies.

[El Pibe]

AS i said, there are plenty of laws in place.

I totally agree about faith schools for a million reasons of which mysogyny is but a single one.

I'm not sure what 'accept' means, to a very real extent there's very little you can do about peoples' opinons, which is really what it boils down to. Culture is really just a consensus brought about by indoctrination and shared experience.

That experiences changes in a different place and yo uget the new ones educated, ie indoctrinated in what we (not they) believe to be right.

[El Pibe]

MrBen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Nice catch quidsy. They've all taken your boilies.

I just rolled my eyes at it, but carney HAD to bite di'n'e

[????]

Snorks exposed as Guardian reading 'liberal' .

Yup Jeremy - but I see that Guardianistas still want to protect their right oneness rather than seek you know actual solutions to this grooming practice and protecting young vulnerable people of whatever background or race . The Harpersons' other half on Newsnight the other night was an embarrassment slime of PC denialness/ "lessons must be learned" (standard let's bury this line) or if not, well what exactly then Jack? - his missus didn't learn much from sitting on a council that funded white pedophiles when she could have learnt something about putting being right on above questioning inconvenient truths perhaps?

Moral cowardcy - from local government, social services and the police in Rotherham.

[El Pibe]

I'm not sure he is, i think he leans rather leftward of pinko liberal, but he is pointing out the McShane's strawman you kicked this off with. Nowt to do with a community, something to do with ruthless people exploiting gigantic gaps in the safety net and missplaced sensitivity.

The police not investigating probably had more to do with their history of instituionalised racism than anything to do with pinko liberalism.

The whole fear of offence thing, for sure, avoiding dealing with oppression of women? Bollocks.

[vgrant]

GTF. I read a guardian on Tuesday - my first for maybe a year.

Taxi drivers/ the filth / Councillors/ ranked civil servants/ local authority barons/ feted light entertainers / MPs/ Oxbridge public schoolboys/ - predominantly male - predominatly macho wankers to a man. This patriacy isnt the sole domain of 2/3 generation migrants - snidey redtop highlighting of race is a diversion - organised sexual abuse of kids did actually exist before Rotherham. We are not in a position to point fingers any any one group - when we tolerate this type of shit to exist in positions where they can prosper, we give them a de facto licence to continue the oppression.

head shots all round. bodies left on peckham rye for the dogs to eat.

[El Pibe]

As I've said before, if you took alcohol out of the equation I reckon a great swathe of this country would be quite cool about sharia;

telling other people how to live their life , check

brutal vigilantiesque treatment of criminals, to a man

keeping women down because your pathetic machismo doesn't bear scrutiny, check

banning gays, check

in fact rolling back liberal 'pc' gains 60 years, wahey!!

daily baths, hmm maybe not ;)

[Jeremy]

I don't really have the knowledge to draw any conclusions about the link (or lack of) between the Rotherham abuse cases and a culture of female oppression. But it would seem wrong to me to lay the blame at anyone or anything other than the offenders themselves.

[????]

vgrant Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> We are not in a position to point

> fingers any any one group -

>

>Yes we are, Guardian reading liberals in positions of power who could have acted and who failed to act based on their fear of being accused of being racist. That's the only point I'm making here...and yet still people don't see that...

Sad day for them (and us) when Nick Griffin and that Tommy twat from the EDF can claim the moral high ground

but far sadder lives for 1000s of kids they were meant to protect.